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Old 10-16-2016, 09:34 AM   #1
TheOneTrueClockWorK
 
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Default Questions About Mounted Combat

In the basic set, it mentions that a rider uses the lower of his weapon skill or riding skill to hit. Is this before or after modifiers? For example, if I have lance 15 and riding 14, do I lower my lance skill to 14, then apply a +1 for weapon bond and a -3 for targeting vitals, for a net skill of 12? Or do I apply those to my lance skill, and then roll against the lower of the two, for a net skill of 13?

Also, do the modifiers listed under the riding skill (like the mount being trained in the mount skill or the mount being comfortable with the rider) apply to the riding skill for this purpose? Do they add before or after, like the weapon skill modifiers?

And as a side, does this work the same way for battlesuits?
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Old 10-16-2016, 10:06 AM   #2
acrosome
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Having reviewed the rule, the intent seems to be to lower your base weapon skill if the PC's riding skill is low. So I think you reduce the weapon skill effectively to the lever of the (lower) Riding skill, and only then start applying modifiers.

So, start with the lower skill level, and then start applying the weapon bond, penalties, etc.
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:19 PM   #3
TheOneTrueClockWorK
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Quote:
Having reviewed the rule, the intent seems to be to lower your base weapon skill if the PC's riding skill is low. So I think you reduce the weapon skill effectively to the lever of the (lower) Riding skill, and only then start applying modifiers.

So, start with the lower skill level, and then start applying the weapon bond, penalties, etc.
So how do the riding skill modifiers factor into this?
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:57 PM   #4
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneTrueClockWork
In the basic set, it mentions that a rider uses the lower of his weapon skill or riding skill to hit. Is this before or after modifiers? For example, if I have lance 15 and riding 14, do I lower my lance skill to 14, then apply a +1 for weapon bond and a -3 for targeting vitals, for a net skill of 12? Or do I apply those to my lance skill, and then roll against the lower of the two, for a net skill of 13?

Also, do the modifiers listed under the riding skill (like the mount being trained in the mount skill or the mount being comfortable with the rider) apply to the riding skill for this purpose? Do they add before or after, like the weapon skill modifiers?

And as an aside, does this work the same way for battlesuits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by acrosome
Having reviewed the rule, the intent seems to be to lower your base weapon skill if the PC's riding skill is low. So I think you reduce the weapon skill effectively to the lever of the (lower) Riding skill, and only then start applying modifiers.

So, start with the lower skill level, and then start applying the weapon bond, penalties, etc.
While I agree with acrosome about the intent of the rule, I don’t agree with his approach to the calculation. I would say that any permanent modifiers to either the weapon or the mount, such as a weapon bond or the mount being comfortable/familiar with the rider are added to basic skill and then the lower of the two skills are used. Techniques and situational modifiers, such as having the hit location technique, targeting the vitals, unsure footing, height difference if you’re attacking someone who’s on the rampart of low wall or anything else that might change from turn to turn during the combat then gets factored onto the lower skill.

As for battlesuits, while they don’t use the mounted combat rules (at least, not necessarily), I would treat figuring the lower of weapon or the governing Environment Suit skill in the same fashion as the intent seems to be the same, i.e. I’d take the lower of the two skills after including permanent modifiers and then add situational and technique modifiers thereafter.

In the case of lasting temporary modifiers, anything that lasts several turns but might not last the entire combat, (I’m primarily thinking of short term spell buffs, but the principle should apply generally), I’d say make two calculations, one with and one without and be prepared to switch once the lasting temporary modifier goes away.

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 10-16-2016 at 04:30 PM. Reason: inserted "after" in "after including"
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Old 10-16-2016, 09:42 PM   #5
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Does the system distinguish between couched style and overhand style?
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Old 10-16-2016, 10:13 PM   #6
RobKamm
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Does the system distinguish between couched style and overhand style?
B397 has rules specifically for the couched lance (damage based on Mount's ST) vs. Melee Weapons (which B204 explicitly says that the lance is not) which only gain a damage bonus if the mount is moving sufficiently fast. So, yes, GURPS recognizes differences between overhand and couched styles.

As a further example of this difference: Martial Arts explicitly describes the fighting style of Armatura Equestris as fighting with an uncouched spear and only gives them the Spear skill -- not the Lance skill.

Yes, I know that Martial Arts calls out Lance as a "Melee Weapon" on MA55. I'll note that the section explicitly limits that description to the rules in that book. I'm pretty sure that the authors of MA were not trying to overrule B397 with that section.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:07 AM   #7
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

I agree with Acrosomes reading

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneTrueClockWorK View Post
So how do the riding skill modifiers factor into this?
As a mod that is applied to riding skill I'd say, so say you have riding 12 broadsword 17 and war saddle which gives +3 to riding, a bonded broad sword and your aim for some chaps skull from behind -5, but you get +1 for height advantage when targeting the head and going fast enough to get +1 damage -1 to hit.


So your riding skill is 12+3 = 15

Your broadsword skill is thus capped at 15, so to makes the hit your need to roll 15+1-5+1-1 = 11



EDIT: I may be wrong about the saddle bonus see next post!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-17-2016 at 01:33 AM.
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:24 AM   #8
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I agree with Acrosomes reading



As a mod that is applied to riding skill I'd say, so say you have riding 12 broadsword 17 and war saddle which gives +3 to riding, a bonded broad sword and your aim for some chaps skull from behind -5, but you get +1 for height advantage when targeting the head and going fast enough to get +1 damage -1 to hit.


So your riding skill is 12+3 = 15

Your broadsword skill is thus capped at 15, so to makes the hit your need to roll 15+1-5+1-1 = 11
Just curious; what difference do you see between the bonus you are getting from your saddle and the bonus you are getting from Weapon Bond? Both are effectively "always on" and not circumstantial.
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Old 10-17-2016, 01:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Just curious; what difference do you see between the bonus you are getting from your saddle and the bonus you are getting from Weapon Bond? Both are effectively "always on" and not circumstantial.
No difference that why both still give a bonus to the final outcome (if you start including such bonuses as part of a skill that gets capped, you risk losing them when you apply the cap).

Basically a sword you really comfortable weilding should make it a little bit easy to ride some chap down and cave in his skull, just as having a good saddle designed to help ride down chaps and cave in their skulls.



(which is a point the text in LT specially says +X to "riding to stay mounted", I'm assuming the bonus applies to combat)


Actually reading the LT and Basic further I realise the intent is that riding equipment only negates penalties to riding and not to give net bonuses (even though it also talks about net bonus in an example).

Hmm not sure about that, also even if I did run it that way I'd count Riding skill capping combat skills as a penalty, and as such can be negated by this equipment.

And all that said the big bonus here is +5 if the animal knows
and likes you
, which likely also comes with a +1 from the mount having Mount skill

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-17-2016 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 10-17-2016, 03:29 AM   #10
corwyn
 
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Default Re: Questions About Mounted Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
No difference that why both still give a bonus to the final outcome (if you start including such bonuses as part of a skill that gets capped or is the cap, you risk losing them when you apply the cap).

Basically a sword you really comfortable weilding should make it a little bit easy to ride some chap down and cave in his skull, just as having a good saddle designed to help ride down chaps and cave in their skulls.
Ah, but you are treating them differently. You added the saddle bonus, then compared the two, took the lower (riding) and then added the combat modifiers (including weapon bond).

Using your example, I think it should be:

Riding-12 +3 for the saddle=15
Sword-17 +1 for weapon bond=18

becomes 15-5+1-1=10

treating the non-circumstantial equipment modifiers equally, then adding on the circumstantial non-equipment mods.

Quote:


(which is a point the text in LT specially says +X to "riding to stay mounted", I'm assuming the bonus applies to combat)


Actually reading the LT and Basic further I realise the intent is that riding equipment only negates penalties to riding and not to give net bonuses (even though it also talks about net bonus in an example).

Hmm not sure about that, also even if I did run it that way I'd count Riding skill capping combat skills as a penalty, and as such can be negated by this equipment.

And all that said the big bonus here is +5 if the animal knows
and likes you
, which likely also comes with a +1 from the mount having Mount skill
I'd probably allow that as well; again, static modifiers that will apply to virtually all Riding rolls.
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