Contests, Opposed Rolls, and Tasks -- Feedback, Please?

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

We absolutely need to add a mechanic to do this - thanks for raising the issue, zot. GURPS has a mechanic, but I don't want to import it wholesale.

Here is an attempt to write a VERY simple mechanic. You will note zot's influence in the example in the last paragraph :)
...

I totally agree with the need for contests.

If you decide to keep the weird weapons (nets, bolas, lassos, whips), they work better if you have contests.

Also, stealth and hiding is easy if you have contests.

Good for you Zot! A personal shout out from Steve.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by JLV

I like this, but can you give an example of how it would be used in a social contest -- say, between someone with an IQ of 18, and someone with an IQ of 10 who has Sex Appeal and Charisma? I'm having some trouble wrapping my head around how you would adjust something like that...

Hmmm. Let's say you allow 1 less dice for each relevant Talent, so the IQ 10 character rolls 1 die and the IQ 18 character rolls 3. This would make them roughly even on average rolls. Or you could add 2 dice to the roll of the higher IQ character. This would also make them about even on average but would give more room for critical success and failure. Would that be reasonable do you think?

[JLV]

That sounds perfectly reasonable, and I'd go for option 2 -- adding the dice to the IQ 18 person to provide for greater opportunities for critical success/failure (which always seems to provide the best roleplaying opportunities).

Thanks, Chris!

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

We absolutely need to add a mechanic to do this - thanks for raising the issue, zot. GURPS has a mechanic, but I don't want to import it wholesale.

Here is an attempt to write a VERY simple mechanic. You will note zot's influence in the example in the last paragraph :)

There will be situations where two players, or a player and an NPC, are in a “contest.” This might be a literal contest, like arm-wrestling, or a metaphorical one.

The rule is fine in theory, especially if the contest is carefully defined as "unless covered by existing rules for conflicts". However...

... it begs the question of why combat between two fighters, saving rolls against spells, grappling in HT H combat, etc. are not considered a "contest" since that's an obvious example of one person trying to do something and another trying to stop them.

The "core mechanic" in TFT is: "roll to hit" vs. your DX or IQ vs. a foe (with a thrown spell or a weapon) and there is simply NO DEFENSE.

This same mechanic is repeated elsewhere in the rules. For instance, the Charisma, New Followers and Monster Followers talent works this way: the influencing character rolls against his IQ and the target is affected, no save!

(There are a few spells that give the defender an independent defense roll (e.g., Control Person) that is independent of the acting character's success.

Okay, that's the fast and furious TFT...

... But then if you start with a second mechanic that involves calculating margins of success in contest instead of the "first strike that hit succeeds, no defense" mechanic found in the Charisma/Follower talents it seems a bit weird.

I'm not actually sure TFT attributes are really set up for opposed contests. (In particular, if used for anything more serious than friendly arm wrestling, the very high ST scores assigned to monsters - since they double duty as HP... will be potentially problematic).

My own take on this is that this opens up a big can of worms in regard to the existing Talent mechanics and starts pushing the system away from "classic TFT"

[zot]

Hmm, Darkcity games has a very interesting opposed roll mechanic that's super simple and reminds me of what Larsdangly describes from Pendragon games. It's kind of the opposite of Steve's rules:

Each player rolls against their adj attribute (or target number) and the one with the highest roll wins.
The players can choose to roll as many dice as they want to.

This is the least fiddly of any of the opposed roll systems I've seen -- no math beyond just figuring out your modifiers. Great work Darkcity guys!

[zot]

So, I think the best attribute / non-attribute opposed roll idea is a combination of Dark City's mechanic and "Skarg's start at 10" as a base target number:

1. Add your modifiers to your attribute (if it's a non-attribute roll, use 10), pick how many dice to roll, and roll the dice
2. If you roll equal to or under your number and you roll higher than your opponent, you win the roll

Very simple and it adds a very cool element of risk, and no subtraction or fiddling

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by zot

So, I think the best attribute / non-attribute opposed roll idea is a combination of Dark City's mechanic and "Skarg's start at 10" as a base target number:

1. Add your modifiers to your attribute (if it's a non-attribute roll, use 10), pick how many dice to roll, and roll the dice
2. If you roll equal to or under your number and you roll higher than your opponent, you win the roll

Very simple and it adds a very cool element of risk, and no subtraction or fiddling

This would solve a number of issues. And it gives the GM the option of deciding how much any given talent is worth in the specific situation and 'social' talents would become more useful.

[zot]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

This would solve a number of issues. And it gives the GM the option of deciding how much any given talent is worth in the specific situation and 'social' talents would become more useful.

Yes, the entire motivation for me to push contests for TFT is because I want to see social talents become more useful. It can be a lot of fun to play out social conflicts.

[zot]

Modified my doc to use the new opposed roll rules. It's way simpler now.

[Steve Jackson]

Yes, a possibility is to ADD dice for the side that does NOT have the talent, but that seems very countersystem. Maybe fancy written footwork could get around it.

Please keep in mind here that this is not GURPS. There are no disadvantages, so the smart but anticharismatic contestant is kind of a straw man. (Believe me, I have thought about incorporating disads, but not in this edition.)

Maybe the “minimum 2 dice” suggestion is too limiting, and the minimum becomes 1? That would allow for one side to get two Talent bonuses.

I will look at zot's rewrite.