Making Techniques Worthwhile

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that we might want to step back a moment and question the basic utility of Skills in GURPS. In the case of DX-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than three skills above DX because it is more cost effective to purchase DX due to the Basic Speed +0.25 that you gain from DX+1. In the case of IQ-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than two skills above IQ because it is more cost effective to purchase IQ due to the Per+1 and Will+1 from IQ+1. In the case of HT-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have any skills above HT because it is more cost effective to purchase HT due to the FP+1 and Basic Speed +0.25 from HT+1 (the same applies to Per-based skills and Will-based skills, though for different reasons). Talents effectively increase Attributes for the purpose of this examination.

I suggest a modest modification to the skill system of GURPS, which I think would balance the issue of Attributes versus Skills. When characters purchase any skill, they gain one Technique Point for every Character Point that they invest in the skill for purchasing the Techniques of the associated skill. Techniques may only be improved by spending Technique Points, and Technique Points may not be purchased with Character Points. In the case of Combat Perks, Technique Points count as Character Points for determining the number of generic combat perks and style combat perks that a character can possess. Combat Perks do not count against the campaign limit for perks as long as they do not exceed ([Skill Points plus Technique Points]/20, rounded down) for generic combat perks and ([Skill Points plus Technique Points within style]/10, rounded down) for style combat perks.

For example, you have two MMA fighters skilled in JKD and Kajukenbo, each with Judo-16 and Karate-16, but character A possesses DX 12 and character B possesses DX 16. With the standard rules, the two characters are equal, though character B might have an advantage outside of the ring. With the modified rules through, character A possesses 40 Technique Points while character B possesses only 8 Technique Points, meaning that character A will possess a breath of techniques from her superior experience that will give her an edge in the ring. Character A will not only possess 40 Technique Points for investing in JKD and Kajukendo Techniques, she may also purchase up to 4 generic combat perks and up to 16 style perks (8 from JKD and 8 from Kajukenbo) without them counting against the campaign perk limit. Character B will not be able to purchase any perks without them counting against his limit. Experience would be better than talent in that case, though experience plus talent would be best.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I suggest a modest modification to the skill system of GURPS, which I think would balance the issue of Attributes versus Skills. When characters purchase any skill, they gain one Technique Point for every Character Point that they invest in the skill for purchasing the Techniques of the associated skill. Techniques may only be improved by spending Technique Points, and Technique Points may not be purchased with Character Points. ...

Similar ideas have been suggested several times. Few GMs adopt them, because Techniques are slightly too fiddly for most players to find them worth the effort.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Otaku

For the record, I am at least somewhat closer to accepting that this isn't a big issue (maybe even a non-issue). I am quoting the above to portions of posts, however, because there is a reason for wanting a player to invest in many Techniques and not pile all of those points directly into a Skill; how GURPS handles Skills. This ties into the advice from [Basic]; a character can have Karate-40... but both for preserving how Skills are intended to function and fleshing out the character, it makes more sense to take Karate at a still high level (say, 25), then take a few related Skills (like Judo) at good levels, and then invest in Techniques.

So let's say you are that Muay Thai boxer mentioned above, and you are the world champion and possibly one of the greatest fighters who has ever lived. You have IQ 11 [20], DX 15 [100], and Karate-25 [44]. You also raise the other primary skill Games (Muay Thai) to 25 for [52] points. You, as stated earlier upthread, have improved Counterattack up to 25 [6] but changed your mind about Spinning Attack (since it is a finishing move and also considered showy and insulting) and instead improved Knee Strike to 29 (with Technique Mastery) for [5]. Obviously you hae Style Familiarity (Muay Thai) [1]. With [107] points spent on the style you can get 10 style perks, and 5 general combat perks. Muay Thai only has five perks so you take them all [5], including the Special Exercises that allows you get Striker (Crushing; Limb, Shin -20%) [4] and Iron Legs which allows DR 2 (Partial Legs -20%, Tough Skin - 40%) [4]. You also take Trademark Move (Committed Attack (Strong); Deceptive - 12/-6; Rapid Strike; Counterattack Knee Strike to Abdomen)-12 (two attacks; +1 damage; opponent is -8 to Parry/-7 to Dodge); Neck Control (Karate); Iron Arms; Special Exercises (Striking ST 1) and Sure Footed (Slippery) for a total of [5]; which allows you to buy arm DR 2 for [4] and Striking ST 1 [5].

The optional skills for the style are a great place to broaden mastery for high skill characters and here we don't need Wrestling (thanks to Clinch) but we definitely can assume broad training in both traditional and contemporary schools and take Boxing-15 [2], Boxing Sport-14 [1], Dancing (Ram Muay)-15 [2] and Savoir Faire (Gym)-12 [4].

So far not counting ST and HT (both of which you probably want well above average) you have spent [294] points on being a Muay Thai master. "But I have more points", you say, "I want even broader mastery!" Don't worry, I've got you covered. Krabi Krabong is the Thai armed style that is frequently studied with Muay Thai and you could easily spend another 100+ points on its skills, techniques and perks if you wanted.

This definitely looks like a Muay Thai master, and we've only improved two Karate techniques!

I'm just picking numbers half at random, half from what I remember seeing in the [Basic] example (don't have my books with me), but for those wondering why anyone would want to invest heavily in Techniques without just raising the underlying Skill instead - and that includes my own concerns - there we go.

Spending in the neighborhood of [40-60] points on Karate probably counts as investing in raising the skill, I would think!

[Otaku]

...

For the record, I didn't get GURPS Martial Arts since the last time I posted on this thread, sir_pudding. Not that I don't want it, and it does address what I said, but I already agreed that it did from the very beginning.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think that we might want to step back a moment and question the basic utility of Skills in GURPS. In the case of DX-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than three skills above DX because it is more cost effective to purchase DX due to the Basic Speed +0.25 that you gain from DX+1. In the case of IQ-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than two skills above IQ because it is more cost effective to purchase IQ due to the Per+1 and Will+1 from IQ+1. In the case of HT-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have any skills above HT because it is more cost effective to purchase HT due to the FP+1 and Basic Speed +0.25 from HT+1 (the same applies to Per-based skills and Will-based skills, though for different reasons). Talents effectively increase Attributes for the purpose of this examination.

This reminds me of one of the supplemental materials I do have for GURPS; Pyramid 3/83, the "Alternate GURPS IV" issue. Rules for redoing ST, DX, IQ, and HT. Technically, the articles cover just tweaking ST and HT, but the ideas behind revising HT also affect DX and IQ and definitely affect Skill usage. Which, in turn, might make Techniques a little more worthwhile.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Otaku

...

For the record, I didn't get GURPS Martial Arts since the last time I posted on this thread, sir_pudding. Not that I don't want it, and it does address what I said, but I already agreed that it did from the very beginning.

Well the Basic Set doesn't tell you what skills are related, so you are on your own there. However a list like Karate, Judo, Staff, Savior-Faire (Dojo), Philosophy (Buddhism or Daoism), Running, Lifting, Swimming, Climbing and Teaching could fit a generic unarmed martial arts master, without needing to raise more than a couple techniques per skill.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Otaku

For the record, I am at least somewhat closer to accepting that this isn't a big issue (maybe even a non-issue). I am quoting the above to portions of posts, however, because there is a reason for wanting a player to invest in many Techniques and not pile all of those points directly into a Skill; how GURPS handles Skills. This ties into the advice from [Basic]; a character can have Karate-40... but both for preserving how Skills are intended to function and fleshing out the character, it makes more sense to take Karate at a still high level (say, 25), then take a few related Skills (like Judo) at good levels, and then invest in Techniques.

I'm just picking numbers half at random, half from what I remember seeing in the [Basic] example (don't have my books with me), but for those wondering why anyone would want to invest heavily in Techniques without just raising the underlying Skill instead - and that includes my own concerns - there we go.

It's an odd one actually because that bit in basic is talking about reaching a point of diminishing returns at very high skills where results are decided on a 3d6 bell curve and -10 is canonically the hardest something can get. But combat is actually an area which can be an exception.

Because combat can have lots of negative mods (or at least it can have if you want to leverage special effects) and several other ways to leverage extremely high skill, rapid strike etc, etc.

Now there are some advantages that make for more efficient use for some of this things in combination with high skill ("trained by a master" to half your rapid strike and multiple defence pens for instance, but it still kind of needs to paired with good skill to make the most of that).
But ultimately because GURPS combat options are so flexible, usually with several different way to go about doing stuff you can muscle a lot of situations with very high skill.

And well to paraphrase S.Jackson in Jackie Brown "Rapidstrike, deceptive thrust to the eye, When you absolutely, positively, got to kill every mofo in the room; accept no substitutes"

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

I think that we might want to step back a moment and question the basic utility of Skills in GURPS. In the case of DX-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than three skills above DX because it is more cost effective to purchase DX due to the Basic Speed +0.25 that you gain from DX+1. In the case of IQ-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have more than two skills above IQ because it is more cost effective to purchase IQ due to the Per+1 and Will+1 from IQ+1. In the case of HT-based skills, it is usually not worthwhile to have any skills above HT because it is more cost effective to purchase HT due to the FP+1 and Basic Speed +0.25 from HT+1 (the same applies to Per-based skills and Will-based skills, though for different reasons). Talents effectively increase Attributes for the purpose of this examination.

That isn't the case if you ever float skills to other attributes, use the familiarity rules, use Styles from Martial Arts with include Style Perk Rules. Or the general Combat Perk limits recommended in Power Ups 2: Perks.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

For example, you have two MMA fighters skilled in JKD and Kajukenbo, each with Judo-16 and Karate-16, but character A possesses DX 12 and character B possesses DX 16. With the standard rules, the two characters are equal, though character B might have an advantage outside of the ring.

Let's relook at that using the rules in Basic, Martial Arts/Power-Ups.

Ability Abe: [128]
IQ/HT/ST 10 [0]
DX 16 [120]
Judo 16 (+0) [4]
Karate 16 (+0) [4]

Skilled Sally [80]:
IQ/HT/ST 10 [0]
DX 12 [40]
Judo 16 (+4) [20]
Karate 16 (+4) [20]

So let's compare these two. You say that there is no difference between them in the ring, but Ability Abe would have the edge outside of the ring. Well...I don't think that is true.

First off, Skilled Sally has another 48cp she can spend so she has spent the same amount of points as Ability Abe. What are we going to with that? But let's go back to and finish up Ability Abe first, and give him two more cp so he can have the style familiarities...plus 130cp is a nice round number.

Ability Abe: [130]
IQ/HT/ST 10 [0]
DX 16 [120]
Style Familiarity (JKD; Kajukenbo) [2]

Judo 16 (+0) [4]
Karate 16 (+0) [4]


Please note. Abe has only spent 8cp in skills so is not eligible for any combat perks in general (which requires 20cp/Perk) nor any style perks (which requires 10cp in Style skills/Perk).

Now let's fill in Sally. With the cp she has already spent in skills, she is eligible for 2 General Combat Perks and 4 Style Perks. And in the end is able to get 3 General Combat perks.

Skilled Sally [129]:
IQ 10 [0]
ST 11 [10]
HT 11 [10]
DX 12 [40]
Style Familiarity (JKD; Kajukenbo) [2]
Special Exercises DR 1 (Tough Skin) [1]
Damage Resistance 1 (Tough Skin) [3]
Neck Control (Karate) [1]
*Technique Mastery (Counterattack) [1]
*Technique Mastery (Exotic Hand Strike) [1]
*Rapid Retraction (Punches) [1]

Judo 16 (+4) [20]
Karate 16 (+4) [20]

Counterattack (Karate/H) 20 [10]
Exotic Hand Strike (Karate/A) 20 [5]
Feint (Karate/H) 20 [5],

So if we are out of the Ring and Abe and Sally find a clue...and Old karate manual...the GM calls for an IQ based Karate roll to see what they might now about the manual. Abe...who is naturally skilled based on ability, but doesn't have as much experienced represented by the few skill points, will roll straight IQ. So, 10. Sally will roll vs. IQ+4...or 14. So In all cases where there will be any sort of roll that is that is floated to anything else other than DX. Sally will be at an advantage.

Sally has saved a lot of points by not sinking so much into attributes, so she had a lot more points to put into her other stuff. She is going to do more damage than Abe, she is going to be able to demolish Abe the minute she gets to counterattack. She is going to combine that Counterattack with the Exotic Hand Strike attacking at 24...which means she can do a lot of deceptive attack to reduce Abe's defenses and she can still target eyes, vitals and other exciting parts of the body.

I'd rather play Sally any day.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by trooper6

I'd rather play Sally any day.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't.

I mean, sure, if the campaign is about nothing but fighting in a ring using Karate and Judo, she is certainly superior, by a wide margin. Once you start doing anything else, why...

Abe has a default of 10-12 in every DX skill in the game that has a default. That's most of them. For a very minor investment (1pt each) with the rest of his points (and for the record, if it was a 130 pt game net of disads, I would send both players back to the drawing board), he has a good level in Acrobatics, Stealth, weapon skills, etc. For a 12 in these skills, Sally would need to pay 4-12 points each!

But yes, for just combat, points in skills to such a degree is superior to DX.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Additionally, remember that techniques stack when using them together.

That I did not know. Seems like I have to point out a certain page in Martial Arts to my GM.