What is murder?

[zogo]

I think at this point a reference to Sole Executionism on 114-115 of Toxic Memes is in order. It refers to the idea that AIs sometimes believe that different executions of their program are different beings, and that criminal AIs have used this as a legal defense.

The impression I get from the text is that except for the one mentioned case (where the AI had been deliberately altered) it isn't ususally effective. If this impression is true, it strongly implies that different executions of the same AI are considered the same person legally in most jurisdictions.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Khoontshdroos

I'm not so sure that the law will follow so fast such ramifications; or at least not easiley; particularily about the homicide aspect of things.

Well, traditionally a homicide or murder ends up with the victim legally dead. So if the victim is not legally dead - as it is the case with ghosts in jurisdictions that give them rights (EU, USA, a couple of others), then it won't be murder, but some kind of aggravated assault.

And I'm not so sure some ghost will not have BIG conflicts with the dead's body heirs, especially in influent & powerfull families.

I'd expect so, too - but ghosts have been around for some time and I suspect that most of these legal issues have been worked out by now.

[Khoontshdroos]

Ok; surely I've to dig in published TS material; but I personaly have difficulties to admit that law-makers can seriously decide the ghost being the same person as the flesh'n blood person (even if a copy of the ghost is considered the same person as the ghost), and not something like the closest heir, testamental executor and life-insurence beneficiary. What a chaos it would create!

[Khoontshdroos]

And even not speaking about the tax-aspect of the question. At least in France ;)

[zogo]

Originally Posted by Khoontshdroos

Ok; surely I've to dig in published TS material; but I personaly have difficulties to admit that law-makers can seriously decide the ghost being the same person as the flesh'n blood person (even if a copy of the ghost is considered the same person as the ghost), and not something like the closest heir, testamental executor and life-insurence beneficiary. What a chaos it would create!

Why? Biosapient->Ghost is the only means of copying a sapient that automatically destroys the old copy (destructive scans are neccesary).

Assuming that the proper class of Biosapients and Ghosts have the same legal status (almost all jurisdictions that allow ghosting treat them as Citizens) it's fairly simple legally if philosophically complicated.

[Khoontshdroos]

Ok. And if a potentialy IMMORTAL ghost is the same person that the MORTAL one he is the copy of, then he will potentaly have no heir at all, though having childrens. Interresting, but then this is the end of the big families I was speaking about. I didn't realise that. Wow. TS is really a weird world, full of ... undeads!
But then, real murder erasing completely somebody is still murder, and murder of just the impermanent body of an immortal being a kind of savage assault costing loss of money through health services and lost business days. And destruction of biological property, of course. (Couldn't you see were you're driving? Have to pay me a new body, you ****! )
I understand things as quickly as everybody, I just need longer explanations. Thanks!

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Khoontshdroos

Ok; surely I've to dig in published TS material; but I personaly have difficulties to admit that law-makers can seriously decide the ghost being the same person as the flesh'n blood person (even if a copy of the ghost is considered the same person as the ghost), and not something like the closest heir, testamental executor and life-insurence beneficiary. What a chaos it would create!

Oh, it's actually a fairly simple process:

1) Ghost technology becomes available.

2) The ultra-rich become interested in this technology as a way of living beyond their natural life span.

3) They lobby their local legislators to accept the ghost of a biosapient as the same legal entity so that they don't have to deal with inheritance hassles by going through the process.

4) The legislators are swayed by campaign donations and implement the relevant laws.

5) The ultra-rich go through destructive uploading and live happily ever after.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Khoontshdroos

Ok. And if a potentialy IMMORTAL ghost is the same person that the MORTAL one he is the copy of, then he will potentaly have no heir at all, though having childrens. Interresting, but then this is the end of the big families I was speaking about.

Well, big families are on the way out even today, at least in Europe and Japan. That's merely taking the trend to its logical extreme.

I didn't realise that. Wow. TS is really a weird world, full of ... undeads!

Well, not full of them - plenty of people are leery of the process, especially considering that medical technology seems poised to make everyone immortal in the traditional way anyway by stopping aging.

But yes, the world of TS is full of very strange people. And some of them are player characters. ;)

[Khoontshdroos]

Ok. And even if they would have to go through human-life-long process to have access to their frosen properties, it would'nt matter. Right!

[Khoontshdroos]

By big families, I think powerfull rich families, and I'm not so sure they're on the way out. They still trust the big places everywhere. At least in France.