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Old 01-07-2015, 11:08 PM   #11
Otaku
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Overheat View Post
Otaku: If you wanted to take a break from this series to discuss things that you could link to in future posts about advantages, I think you should.
Thanks for the feedback. Hopefully a few others will chime in so I know whether this would be prudent or simply a waste of time.

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In a game where I was the GM, I just gave it to everyone for free so that it wouldn't be such a feel bad having to spend the mandatory 15.
This (and the similar comments already mounting up) are why I'd prefer if Advantages weren't discounted to help players/increase the amount of characters with said trait in the core rules, and why I'd really like a "crunchier" breakdown of Combat Reflexes because I think Kenneth Latrans is taking a good approach; in a lot of stories and game settings, bits and pieces of Combat Reflexes are givens but often not the whole package. It might be demanding, but GURPS has raised my expectations high for such things. ;)

I probably should see if there is a thread about "Advantages you should discount or give to your players for free" thread (or something like that). While I'm less worried about Combat Reflexes, the basic level of Luck seems like something to hand out for free... but at the same time, for the crunch factor, I like having a CP value for it.

Oh, and since it is indirectly a story about Combat Reflexes, I figured I should explain my somewhat awkwardly worded final comment. We had a group in a TL3, no magic setting that justified us being a mercenary group and our two front-line fighters had Combat Reflexes but no High Pain Threshold (...one was the group's "other" GM and should have known better). Our point totals weren't high enough to allow us the armor or Active Defenses (well, it was 3e) to avoid injury, and the shock and knockdown penalties were so severe in our first match-up it nearly led to a TPK. One character (the front line fighter being run by a newer member of the group) actually got hit so hard his character has some permanent Attribute loss from the injuries; that character was allowed to retire. The other two PCs were laid up healing for months (I was running an archer, which is why someone survived long enough for our target to finally succumb to his injuries and pass out). Since I was attacking from a distance and thus not taking damage and facing shock penalties, I also ended up scoring most of the damage instead of just being something of a distraction.
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Old 01-08-2015, 07:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

Yes Combat Reflexes is CHEAP for what it does and is Damn well worth the 15 points.
Its cost, like everything else, is at the discretion of the GM to change or even ignore at his own leisure and for the good of the game.

In our games, I charged them 15 points for it, and eventually, they all bought it. Its too good a deal not to take. That said, I have long maintained that the primary use for Char Points is to help players differentiate themselves from each other. In other words, if I had 'given' them all Combat Reflexes, and lowered the point budget by 15 points, the effects would have been the same.

As a GM I liked the effect it had on that game. Gave the players a little more swagger and made them a bit bolder in combat. Thats what I was looking for in the Dungeon Fantasy and Spec Ops Zombie type games I was running.

Had the campaign been different, had I been running an 'everyman' horror/suspense campaign, I might well have tripled the cost of Combat Reflexes to enforce its rarity or simply forbade it outright.

Combat Reflexes encourages players to whomp Ogres, buckle their swash, and slide into an inky river with a knife in their teeth. Thats combat. Thats adventure. Thats alot of what made the game fun for our group.

As for a 'crunchier' break down, I dont think your likely to get one. As we've discussed, its already phenominally cheap so breaking it down is difficult. Not unlike trying to separate the 'talent' and 'advantage' components of Magery.

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Old 01-08-2015, 11:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Part of the problem is that, while combat reflexes are probably underpriced, most of the other enhanced defenses are overpriced. GURPS 4e is very heavily weighted towards 'pick one skill. Raise it through the roof' as an optimal combat strategy.
This post has me thinking. First I was just going to ask for more details and/or try to work out the numbers myself...

...but maybe I should just bite the bullet and accept I should have made this thread cover Enhanced Defenses (and perhaps Enhanced Time Sense since that is flat out stated to include Combat Reflexes). This is only the 13th post on the thread, so it isn't like we've had pages and pages of discussion.
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Old 01-08-2015, 01:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
This post has me thinking. First I was just going to ask for more details and/or try to work out the numbers myself...

...but maybe I should just bite the bullet and accept I should have made this thread cover Enhanced Defenses (and perhaps Enhanced Time Sense since that is flat out stated to include Combat Reflexes). This is only the 13th post on the thread, so it isn't like we've had pages and pages of discussion.
Regarding Enhanced Time Sense, ETS and CR have nothing in common mechanically except that everyone who has ETS must also have CR. It's perfectly reasonable to discuss it at another time.

Enhanced Defenses has a relationship with CR: CR adds to defenses more cheaply and also has other benefits, while Enhanced Defenses can have levels. Since they've got that in common, it's reasonable for one to come up when discussing the other. Maybe CR will come up on the Enhanced Defenses thread, but it's still reasonable to give ED its own thread.

Basically, we're talking on a forum. It's nice that we have this loose guidance to this particular conversation, but at the end of the day, it's not like we can do it wrong.

As for Anthony's point, I'd realized this before, but I hadn't put it into words so succinctly. On the one hand, you're saying "if you want to get good at fighting, put points in Fighting," which is fairly obvious, but I think the system has been insufficiently well balanced around that idea. As he states, Enhanced Defenses is overpriced in comparison, and Dodge and Block have considerable limitations that make Parry preferable for anything you can Parry.
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

I actually did already edit Enhanced Time Sense and Enhanced Defenses into the opening post; if everyone ignores them, we can do them later.

For now I'll just separate out what I can from Combat Reflexes:

+1 to all Active Defenses based on Enhanced Defenses is worth a lot, but I'm not sure if they are priced correctly in GURPS. Having Enhanced Defense (Block), Enhanced Defense (Dodge) and Enhanced Defense (All Parries) totals 30 points but only gives you the bonus for one kind of Block (like Shield or Cloak, but not both).

+1 to all Fast-Draw Skills is technically the equivalent of a Talent, isn't it? I mean, its a wide open Talent since all Fast-Draw Skills count as just "one" for Talent purposes. That gives us a value of 5 points.

+2 to Fright Checks would be covered by Fearlessness Lv. 2, but that includes additional stuff. Seems like Perk Territory to me for one point.

Immune to "freezing" in a surprise situation I don't know how to price.

+6 on IQ rolls to wake up or recover from surprise or mental "stun"... would this be a bit like Resistance?

+1 (or +2 if you are the leader) on initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack seems like another Perk.
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
Yes Combat Reflexes is CHEAP for what it does and is Damn well worth the 15 points.
Its cost, like everything else, is at the discretion of the GM to change or even ignore at his own leisure and for the good of the game.

In our games, I charged them 15 points for it, and eventually, they all bought it. Its too good a deal not to take. That said, I have long maintained that the primary use for Char Points is to help players differentiate themselves from each other. In other words, if I had 'given' them all Combat Reflexes, and lowered the point budget by 15 points, the effects would have been the same.
You said "eventually", so the initial effect would have been different. When I come up with the idea for the gifted farm boy suddenly thrown among hardened combat veterans to sink or swim it's important that he NOT have combat reflexes until he has a few combats under his belt. And frankly I don't see much point in getting combat reflexes for most magician designs. Magician aren't notable for being quick out of the gate, and usually have dodge scores that are low enough that they aren't going to get practical use out of a +1 to them. And that's 15 spells or most of an IQ point I'm giving up. Combat reflexes are a good deal, but only if you are in the market for what they offer.
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Old 01-08-2015, 02:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

If I put a hundred points into combat abilities, I should get a hundred points' worth of combat goodness. If I put a hundred points into social abilities, I should get a hundred points' worth of social abilities.

If I put a hundred points into social abilities and get a hundred points' worth of social abilities, while you put a hundred points into combat abilities and get a hundred-and-fifty points' worth of combat abilities, then that's unfair.

One of the major reasons to use point pricing is as a non-arbitrary means of fairly determining which combinations of traits are allowed as characters.

The notion that the game should incentivize people to play combat characters by making combat characters more powerful than other types of characters at the same point total seems completely unfair.

"Well, look," the game says, "I know your doctor is much less powerful than his gunfighter, but that's by design. See, I'm trying to encourage you to play the gunfighter rather than the doctor."

"But I am a doctor. Why shouldn't I be as good at doctoring as he is at fighting?"

"Because then more people might play doctors instead of gunfighters, which I don't like, so I try to encourage people to choose gunfighters over doctors."
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Old 01-08-2015, 03:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
The notion that the game should incentivize people to play combat characters by making combat characters more powerful than other types of characters at the same point total seems completely unfair.
"
<snort> Ever design a character with, let's say, 5 levels of Charisma? Believe me, the result can be enormously more powerful than 25 points of combat oriented capabilities. Or not. It's so situationally dependent and the relevant mechanics are so different that there's no way to numerically compare the two things.
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Old 01-08-2015, 03:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ View Post
"Well, look," the game says, "I know your doctor is much less powerful than his gunfighter, but that's by design. See, I'm trying to encourage you to play the gunfighter rather than the doctor."

"But I am a doctor. Why shouldn't I be as good at doctoring as he is at fighting?"

"Because then more people might play doctors instead of gunfighters, which I don't like, so I try to encourage people to choose gunfighters over doctors."
Except Combat Reflexes effect of Surprise and Mental stun makes it a good deal for ER Doctors and EMTs
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Old 01-08-2015, 03:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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<snort> Ever design a character with, let's say, 5 levels of Charisma? Believe me, the result can be enormously more powerful than 25 points of combat oriented capabilities.
That's only an example. Social abilities and wealth are even cheaper than combat abilities at certain price points.

The usefulness of additional social abilities drops off fairly quickly. One hundred points in social abilities is about the same functionally as fifty points.

Wealth, on the other hand, has useless levels. Comfortable Wealth is almost never worth taking, but going from Filthy Rich to Multimillionaire 1 is very powerful.

If the traits are priced to encourage some concepts and discourage others, then millionaires are supposed to be very common and people who can regrow their limbs are supposed to be extremely rare, because high Wealth is much more powerful than other options for its cost, and Regrowth is much less powerful than other options for its cost.

I would prefer to have the traits be roughly equal in power for the same cost, but that's not the design philosophy favored by the designers.
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