how unbalanced was 3e unbalance?

[muduri]

I have a lot of affection for 3E, and for the campaign I'm starting I'm planning on keeping some of the obsolete 3E features - like PD, a very well-reasoned argument in the Basic Set (?) about why it was dropped notwithstanding.

I've figured out how unbalanced weapons work in 4E - went through the forums and figured out the U versus the single- and double-daggers, etc. It sounds like everybody prefers this to the old 1- or 2-turn ready system.

BUT I have a lot of affection for the old system, for a couple reasons - partly just nostalgia, partly because combat's usually over in so few rounds in GURPS and this is an excuse to lengthen it, and partly because swords will be expensive anyway when only dwarves know bronze-working (thank you, Greg Stafford!).

So here's the question - how rough was the 3E system? Fair enough, axe/mace people are at a disadvantage, but would it be enough to make it workable to e.g. give an extra point of damage to axes and maces, and maybe two points to the polearms? Or is it just fundamentally more unbalanced than the 4E system? I saw one post where some poor warrior got one swing at a set of nuns with his glaive and then they mobbed and slew him. Tragic, though Monty Python-esque.

Thanks for any thoughts on this!

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by muduri

partly because combat's usually over in so few rounds in GURPS and this is an excuse to lengthen it,

Totally non-linear solution, but have you considered using The Last Gasp?

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by muduri

swords will be expensive anyway when only dwarves know bronze-working (thank you, Greg Stafford!)

And what about spears and staves and balanced clubs and...

[tbone]

Originally Posted by muduri

but would it be enough to make it workable to e.g. give an extra point of damage to axes and maces, and maybe two points to the polearms?

Hmm, running a bit with that, here's an idea:

Play 4e as is, with 3e-style strikes as an option. Call the option Great Swing. It represents a mightier swing that takes advantage of unbalanced mass, and can be used for large unbalanced weapons only (ones that required a Ready after a swing in 3e but don't in 4e).

Effects: The swing gets +1 damage, but requires one Ready action afterward (per 3e). Weapons that required two Ready actions in 3e have the further option of swinging for +2 damage (followed by two Ready actions).

As it's an option, it lets you try out 3e-style readying effects while keeping the official 4e mechanics too. And it hands unbalanced weapons even better bash (something I've always thought they needed).

What do you think?

[gilbertocarlos]

The PD problem is a huge one, someone in leather have double the chance to dodge against a bullet.

Try 4E. REALLY. I loved 3E, thought that the 4E was unbalanced(20 points for IQ and DX? That's too expensive). But then, I tried it, it works better, it makes the choice of weapons greater, the combat between 2 knights doesn't take 2 years, neither does combat between 2 high skilled opponents.

On top of that, if you're a light warrior, but a well trained one, you can dodge because instead of PD everyone have +3.

Also, there is LT from the 4E, with realistic weights and DR.

[Anthony]

3e basically meant that fights were over in a blink of an eye if you didn't have high PD, lasted forever unless if you did -- unless someone got lucky in which case the fight ends in one hit. It also had anomalies such as eye shots sometimes being easier to hit with than torso shots (if you have skill 20, your opponent has parry 11 and 5 PD from armor, your hit chance on a torso shot is about 10%; on an eye shot it's about 20%, because the eye shot bypasses PD).

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Anthony

3e basically meant that fights were over in a blink of an eye if you didn't have high PD, lasted forever unless if you did -- unless someone got lucky in which case the fight ends in one hit. It also had anomalies such as eye shots sometimes being easier to hit with than torso shots (if you have skill 20, your opponent has parry 11 and 5 PD from armor, your hit chance on a torso shot is about 10%; on an eye shot it's about 20%, because the eye shot bypasses PD).

You can't have more than DB 4

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

You can't have more than DB 4

Laugh. So it's my imagination that there's PD 6 armors in ultratech and the potential for PD 9 plate mail in Magic? It's actually possible to have a passive defense roll of 22 in 3e if you're using magic -- PD 4 from plate, PD 3 from a shield, deflect-5 on your plate, deflect-5 on your shield, and a Shield spell of 5.

[Anders]

Yes, but that would require the economic output of the continent for a decade or so.

Anyway, unbalance never went away, did it? Any weapon with a double dagger is unbalanced, right?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Yes, but that would require the economic output of the continent for a decade or so.

And would be totally pointless, since anything beyond 16 doesn't do anything in 3e. However, PD 5 on body armor is unexceptional in 3e.