[Magic/Thaum] Pulling FP from ambient mana

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Jerander

I could either charge all mages the VHM price and retain the decimal:

M0: [1.05/level]
M1: [1.2/level]
M2: [1.3/level]
M3: [1.5/level]
M4: [1.8/level]
M5: [2.2/level]

Or I could charge all mages for the price of one point at their lowest mana rate:

M0: [1.05/level]
M1: [2.3/level]
M2: [5.2/level]
M3: [12.0/level]
M4: [29.4/level]
M5: [36.1/level]

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jerander.

You should charge the price of the lowest mana rate IMHO. Whatever you have under that mana level doesn't exist for you.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

You should charge the price of the lowest mana rate IMHO. Whatever you have under that mana level doesn't exist for you.

Lower mana levels don't exist for them (for the sake of "Draw Mana") whether they pay top-down (TD) or bottom-up (BU).

1-ER for M0 (TD) @ [1.05/level]: 1-ER (VHM)
1-ER for M0 (BU) @ [1.05/level]: 1-ER (VHM)

1-ER for M1 (TD) @ [1.2/level]: 1-ER (VHM) + 0-ER (HM)
2-ER for M1 (TD) @ [2.4]: 2-ER (VHM) + 1-ER (HM)
1-ER for M1 (BU) @ [2.3/level]: 2-ER (VHM) + 1-ER (HM)

1-ER for M2 (TD) @ [1.3/level]: 1-ER (VHM) + 0-ER (HM) + 0-ER (NM)
2-ER for M2 (TD) @ [2.6]: 2-ER (VHM) + 1-ER (HM) + 0-ER (NM)
3-ER for M2 (TD) @ [3.9]: 3-ER (VHM) + 1-ER (HM) + 0-ER (NM)
4-ER for M2 (TD) @ [5.2]: 4-ER (VHM) + 2-ER (HM) + 1-ER (NM)
1-ER for M2 (BU) @ [5.2/level]: 4-ER (VHM) + 2-ER (HM) + 1-ER (NM)

1-ER for M3 (TD) @ [1.5/level]: 1-ER (VHM) + 0-ER (HM) + 0-ER (NM) + 0-ER (LM)
8-ER for M3 (TD) @ [12]: 8-ER (VHM) + 4-ER (HM) + 2-ER (NM) + 1-ER (LM)
1-ER for M3 (BU) @ [12.0/level]: 8-ER (VHM) + 4-ER (HM) + 2-ER (NM) + 1-ER (LM)

1-ER for M4 (TD) @ [1.8/level]: 1-ER (VHM) + 0-ER (HM) + 0-ER (NM) + 0-ER (LM) + 0-ER (VLM)
16-ER for M4 (TD) @ [28.8]: 16-ER (VHM) + 8-ER (HM) + 4-ER (NM) + 2-ER (LM) + 1-ER (VLM)
1-ER for M4 (BU) @ [29.4/level]: 16-ER (VHM) + 8-ER (HM) + 4-ER (NM) + 2-ER (LM) + 1-ER (VLM)

The prices are (roughly) the same either way. It seems to be mostly a matter of flavor. Personally, I'm leaning towards TD for the smaller prices and the "granularity."

[Jerander]

Unless there's major difficulty with the process as I ran it, I am now going to run several other examples, just to see what happens. I'll spare you all the math, but here's what I'm going to do:

Flat: VLM (20%), LM (20%), NM (20%), HM (20%), VHM (20%)
Strong NM: VLM (1%), LM (7%), NM (84%), HM (7%), VHM (1%)
Strong LM1: VLM (41%), LM (32%), NM (19%), HM (7%), VHM (1%)
Strong LM2: VLM (85%), LM (8%), NM (4%), HM (2%), VHM (1%)
Strong HM1: VLM (1%), LM (7%), NM (19%), HM (32%), VHM (41%)
Strong HM2: VLM (1%), LM (2%), NM (4%), HM (8%), VHM (85%)

[dataweaver]

And now for something completely different:

Use the energy-accumulating rules from the Path/Book magic system; but spend the accumulated magic on spells rather than rituals. This works best if you're looking for something that resembles ceremonial magic, since it takes time to accumulate energy.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Flat: VLM (20%), LM (20%), NM (20%), HM (20%), VHM (20%)
Strong NM: VLM (1%), LM (7%), NM (84%), HM (7%), VHM (1%)
Strong LM1: VLM (41%), LM (32%), NM (19%), HM (7%), VHM (1%)
Strong LM2: VLM (85%), LM (8%), NM (4%), HM (2%), VHM (1%)
Strong HM1: VLM (1%), LM (7%), NM (19%), HM (32%), VHM (41%)
Strong HM2: VLM (1%), LM (2%), NM (4%), HM (8%), VHM (85%)

I ran the numbers this weekend and something interesting happened with the very first variant {Flat: VLM (20%), LM (20%), NM (20%), HM (20%), VHM (20%} when I based CP/level on the highest value.

M0: [1.65/level]
M1: [1.53/level]
M2: [1.63/level]
M3: [1.77/level]
M4: [2.07/level]
M5: [2.26/level]

Those with Magery 1 and 2 would be paying less per level for an ability that has more utility than those with Magery 0. The problem became even more pronounced the stronger I weighted the VLM/LM percentages.

{Strong L2: VLM (85%), LM (8%), NM (4%), HM (2%), VHM (1%)}

M0: [1.35/level]
M1: [1.16/level]
M2: [1.22/level]
M3: [1.35/level]
M4: [1.69/level]
M5: [2.08/level]

Obviously, this cannot be a fair pricing. In order to make it fair, I need to weight the average somehow. Any ideas how?

Thanks,
Jerander.

[The Bearded One]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

And now for something completely different:

Use the energy-accumulating rules from the Path/Book magic system; but spend the accumulated magic on spells rather than rituals. This works best if you're looking for something that resembles ceremonial magic, since it takes time to accumulate energy.

I have something in mind for the next fantasy-themed Pyramid magazine which is quite different from what has been discussed on this thread, but fits with the idea of the thread title.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by The Bearded One

I have something in mind for the next fantasy-themed Pyramid magazine which is quite different from what has been discussed on this thread, but fits with the idea of the thread title.

I look forward to reading it.

In the meantime, I've come up with a solution to my problem. Given the sample:

ER 100 (in VLM)
ER 200 (in LM)
ER 400 (in NM)
ER 800 (in HM)
ER 1600 (in VHM)

What if I multiple that many levels by the distribution? For instance:

ER 100 × 11.1%
ER 200 × 22.2%
ER 400 × 44.4%
ER 800 × 22.2%
ER 1600 × 0.1%

Then multiply that by the cost/level. Then total?

I'll run some numbers when I get a moment...

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

That's very reasonable. Let me suggest how I would handle this -- it's an approach you can see in GURPS Psionic Powers.

Okay, I've been thinking about this some more. The problem is the lessening of the price for greater utility

Originally Posted by Jerander

{Strong L2: VLM (85%), LM (8%), NM (4%), HM (2%), VHM (1%)}

M0: [1.35/level]
M1: [1.16/level]
M2: [1.22/level]
M3: [1.35/level]
M4: [1.69/level]
M5: [2.08/level]

Obviously, this cannot be a fair pricing. In order to make it fair, I need to weight the average somehow. Any ideas how?

The problem seems to be the Accessibility Limitation. The -% for the Limitation doesn't match the % in "reality." So I'm going to approach this problem in three different ways:

1) Instead of using the Accessibility Limitation, I'm going to use the "real" mana distribution.

2) I'm going to try building these as Alternative Abilities, using the Accessibility Limitation.

3) I'm going to try building these as Alternative Abilities, without using the Accessibility Limitation.

[Jerander]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 0:

ER 100 [105]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

[105] = [105]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 1:

ER 200 [210]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%

ER 100 [30]

Accessibility, HM only, -30%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

[210] + [30] = [240]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 2:

ER 400 [420]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%

ER 200 [72]

Accessibility, HM only, -30%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, -10%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 100 [36]

Accessibility, NM only, -20%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

[420] + [72] + [26] = [528]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 3:

ER 800 [840]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%

ER 400 [168]

Accessibility, HM only, -30%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins, +0%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 200 [84]

Accessibility, NM only, -20%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, -10%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 100 [30]

Accessibility, LM only, -30%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

[840] + [168] + [84] + [30] = [1122]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 4:

ER 1600 [336]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 800 [2160]

Accessibility, HM only, -30%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, +20%

ER 400 [192]

Accessibility, NM only, -20%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins, +0%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 200 [72]

Accessibility, LM only, -30%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, -10%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 100 [27]

Accessibility, VLM only, -35%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

[336] + [2160] + [192] + [72] + [27] = [2787]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 5:

ER 3200 [672]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 1600 [5280]

Accessibility, HM only, -30%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins, +40%

ER 800 [480]

Accessibility, NM only, -20%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, +20%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 400 [168]

Accessibility, LM only, -30%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/20-mins, +0%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

ER 200 [132]

Accessibility, VLM only, -35%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, -10%
Alternate Ability, x1/5

[672] + [5280] + [480] + [168] + [132] = [6732]

[Jerander]

Using Alternate Abilities and Accessibility modifiers as written, here's what I come up with on a "Standard" mana distribution:

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 0:

Total: [105]
Price per ER in VHM: [105]/100 = [1.05]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 1:

Total: [240]
Price per ER in VHM: [240]/200 = [1.20]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 2:

Total: [528]
Price per ER in VHM: [528]/400 = [1.32]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 3:

Total: [1122]
Price per ER in VHM: [1122]/800 = [1.40]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 4:

Total: [2787]
Price per ER in VHM: [2787]/1600 = [1.74]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 5:

Total: [6732]
Price per ER in VHM: [6732]/3200 = [2.10]

Looks good. Now to try some extreme examples.

EDIT: Erroneous calculations removed. Stealth correction complete.