[Magic/Thaum] Pulling FP from ambient mana

[garfield]

Originally Posted by Jerander

See Reverend Pee Kitty's note on that. It's on the first page and I quoted him again later on. That's where the "ER kind of meaningless in VHM" modifier came from.

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

For very high mana, I'd be inclined to give an extra point break because the ER is sort of meaningless -- all energy comes right back to you, so all it measures is your "cap". Because of that, I'm going to say it's worth -65% instead of the normal -50% (why? because that's roughly 1/3 instead of 1/2 -- it's an eyeballed thing):

I read it and I don't fully agree to this handwaving, as (if I understand your ability correctly) the ability should give the increased cap - that is what it does. The recharge reflects just the duration that you need to collect the energy again ...

Originally Posted by Jerander

As for using much higher total MP than someone could use...These numbers will be reduced down to a 1-pt ER (and appropriate CP cost) once I figure out how to average these suckers. Again, see RPK's example on the first page. It's what I'm building off.

But you give the person 4 ER for each level of the ability in a VHM zone ... so you have a much higher maximal usable energy for casting spells. That should not give an additional reduction.

[jacobmuller]

I dread this kinda thread
The numbers suck me in
I have to play with them
Spend days working
And reworking
The numbers, crack up,
Dump it on a back-burner and
A month from now
Go "Oh, yeah, the answer's so simple.
Why didn't I think of that before..."

Anyway, to get these numbers outa My head:
M0 [3] only in Very High zones
M1 [5] only in High or Very High zones
M2 [6] not in Low zones
M3 [6] all except No Mana.

That is if you were using RPK's levels and values!
M0 = (120x3-65%) /40
M1 = (40x3-65%+80x3-35%) /40
M2 = (40x3-65%+40x3-35%+40x3-5%) /40
M3 = (40x3-65%+40x3-35%+20x3-5%+20x3-0%) /40

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Fair enough. Poor choice of wording on my part. See:



I'll change the wording of the limitation to "ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%" to reflect.

I see what you're talking about now. Thanks.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by garfield

I read it and I don't fully agree to this handwaving, as (if I understand your ability correctly) the ability should give the increased cap - that is what it does. The recharge reflects just the duration that you need to collect the energy again ...


But you give the person 4 ER for each level of the ability in a VHM zone ... so you have a much higher maximal usable energy for casting spells. That should not give an additional reduction.

Fair enough. I'm not emotionally attached to the modifier. Easy enough to remove if necessary. RPK included it in his example and he seems to be a notable "expert" on GURPS mechanics, so I'll keep it in for now.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Anyway, to get these numbers outa My head:
M0 [3] only in Very High zones
M1 [5] only in High or Very High zones
M2 [6] not in Low zones
M3 [6] all except No Mana.

That is if you were using RPK's levels and values!
M0 = (120x3-65%) /40
M1 = (40x3-65%+80x3-35%) /40
M2 = (40x3-65%+40x3-35%+40x3-5%) /40
M3 = (40x3-65%+40x3-35%+20x3-5%+20x3-0%) /40

Simple enough. It produces results in which M1s and M3s have the same recharge rate and the same size ER at the same Mana Level, which is not quite what I'm going for.

[Jerander]

Sidestepping the averaging for a moment.

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 0:

ER 100 [105]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

[105] / 100 = [1.05/level => 2]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 1:

ER +100 [105]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER 100 [129]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), -20%

([105] + [129]) / ? = [x/level => y]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 2:

ER +200 [210]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +100 [159]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), -10%

ER 100 [156]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), -17%

([210] + [159] + [156]) / ? = [x/level => y]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 3:

ER +400 [420]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +200 [378]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +0%

ER +100 [207]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), -9%

ER 100 [198]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), -8%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -14%

([420] + [378] + [207] + [198]) / ? = [x/level => y]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 4:

ER +800 [840]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +400 [996]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +20%

ER +200 [558]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +15%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +0%

ER +100 [285]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%

ER 100 [261]

Accessibility, VLM and higher, +0%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -13%

([840] + [996] + [558] + [285] + [261]) / ? = [x/level => y]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 5:

ER +1600 [1680]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +800 [2472]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +40%

ER +400 [1500]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +30%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +17%

ER +200 [792]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +28%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +16%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), +0%

ER 200 [780]

Accessibility, VLM and higher, +0%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +28%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +16%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -7%

([1680] + [2472] + [1500] + [792] + [780]) / ? = [x/level => y]

[Jerander]

What to divide by after adding all the ERs together? That's what's been boggling my mind. In RPK's example, 40 was the natural choice as the ER in NM was the assumed baseline. Also due to the recharge rates being assumed as a special effect and the assumption that LM = HM + VHM.

However, I'm not working with those assumptions. So, what to divide the total points by to get the value for the different "Draw Mana" abilities?

Right now, I'm thinking to divide by the value that would put the baseline of 1-pt of ER where I want it to be...I don't know if I can explain better than that. I'm going to use the M3 version for my plaything:

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 3:

ER +400 [420]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +200 [378]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +0%

ER +100 [207]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), -9%

ER 100 [198]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), -8%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -14%

([420] + [378] + [207] + [198]) / ? = [x/level => y]

In this example, if I want my mage to have 1-pt in his/her ER in LM, then I divide by 100. NM: 200. HM: 400. VHM: 800. Producing the following values:

1-pt ER (VHM): ([420] + [378] + [207] + [198] = [1203]) / 800 = [1.5/level]
1-pt ER (HM): [1203] / 400 = [3/level]
1-pt ER (NM): [1203] / 200 = [6/level]
1-pt ER (LM): [1203] / 100 = [12/level]

The numbers seem to work fine. Someone with only 1-pt in VHM would only have 0.5-pts in HM, 0.25-pts in NM, and 0.125-pts in LM, which would all round down to a 0-pt ER in anything but VHM. So that should be a discounted price.

Going the other way, someone with 1-pt in LM would have 2-pts in NM, 4-pts in HM, and 8-pts in VHM. So that should be an increased price.

Makes sense to me. Any input? Anything I'm missing?

I'll try calculating the rest of them in a moment.

Thanks,
Jerander.

[Jerander]

Going back to RPK's "Draw Mana" ability and values:

ER 20 (Low mana and up, -0%) [60]
ER +20 (Normal mana and up, -5%) [57]
ER +40 (High mana and up, -35%) [78]
ER +40 (Very high mana and up, -65%) [42]

[60] + [57] + [78] + [42] = [237]

RPK then divided by 40 to get a value for a 1-pt ER in NM.

[237] / 40 = [5.9/level => 6/level]

What if I assume different baselines?

LM: [237] / 20 = [11.8/level => 12/level]
NM: [237] / 40 = [5.9/level => 6/level]
HM: [237] / 80 = [3/level]
VHM: [237] / 160 = [1.5/level => 2/level]

[Jerander]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 0:

ER 100 [105]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

[105]

VHM: [105] / 100 = [1.05/level => 2/level]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 1:

ER +100 [105]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER 100 [129]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), -20%

([105] + [129]) = [234]

VHM: [234] / 200 = [1.2/level => 2/level]
HM: [234] / 100 = [2.3/level => 3/level]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 2:

ER +200 [210]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +100 [159]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), -10%

ER 100 [156]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), -17%

[210] + [159] + [156] = [525]

VHM: [525] / 400 = [1.3/level => 2/level]
HM: [525] / 200 = [2.6/level => 3/level]
NM: [525] / 100 = [5.2/level => 6/level]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 3:

ER +400 [420]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +200 [378]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +0%

ER +100 [207]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), -9%

ER 100 [198]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), -8%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -14%

[420] + [378] + [207] + [198] = [1203]

VHM: [1203] / 800 = [1.5/level => 2/level]
HM: [1203] / 400 = [3/level]
NM: [1203] / 200 = [6/level]
LM: [1203] / 100 = [12/level]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 4:

ER +800 [840]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +400 [996]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +20%

ER +200 [558]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +15%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +0%

ER +100 [285]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%

ER 100 [261]

Accessibility, VLM and higher, +0%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -13%

[840] + [996] + [558] + [285] + [261] = [2940]

VHM: [2940] / 1600 = [1.8/level => 2/level]
HM: [2940] / 800 = [3.7/level => 4/level]
NM: [2940] / 400 = [7.4/level => 8/level]
LM: [2940] / 200 = [14.7/level => 15/level]
VLM: [2940] / 100 = [29.4/level => 30/level]

"Draw Mana" for those with Magery 5:

ER +1600 [1680]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +800 [2472]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +40%

ER +400 [1500]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +30%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +17%

ER +200 [792]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +28%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +16%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), +0%

ER 200 [780]

Accessibility, VLM and higher, +0%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 2, 1-ER/3-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +28%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +16%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -7%

[1680] + [2472] + [1500] + [792] + [780] = [7224]

VHM: [7224] / 3200 = [2.3/level => 3/level]
HM: [7224] / 1600 = [4.5/level => 5/level]
NM: [7224] / 800 = [9/level]
LM: [7224] / 400 = [18/level]
VLM: [7224] / 200 = [36.1/level => 37/level]

[Jerander]

1-ER (VHM) @ M0: [105] / 100 = [1.05/level]

1-ER (VHM) @ M1: [234] / 200 = [1.2/level]
1-ER (HM) @ M1: [234] / 100 = [2.3/level]

1-ER (VHM) @ M2: [525] / 400 = [1.3/level]
1-ER (HM) @ M2: [525] / 200 = [2.6/level]
1-ER (NM) @ M2: [525] / 100 = [5.2/level]

1-ER (VHM) @ M3: [1203] / 800 = [1.5/level]
1-ER (HM) @ M3: [1203] / 400 = [3.0/level]
1-ER (NM) @ M3: [1203] / 200 = [6.0/level]
1-ER (LM) @ M3: [1203] / 100 = [12.0/level]

1-ER (VHM) @ M4: [2940] / 1600 = [1.8/level]
1-ER (HM) @ M4: [2940] / 800 = [3.7/level]
1-ER (NM) @ M4: [2940] / 400 = [7.4/level]
1-ER (LM) @ M4: [2940] / 200 = [14.7/level]
1-ER (VLM) @ M4: [2940] / 100 = [29.4/level]

1-ER (VHM) @ M5: [7224] / 3200 = [2.2/level]
1-ER (HM) @ M5: [7224] / 1600 = [4.5/level]
1-ER (NM) @ M5: [7224] / 800 = [9.0/level]
1-ER (LM) @ M5: [7224] / 400 = [18.1/level]
1-ER (VLM) @ M5: [7224] / 200 = [36.1/level]

Where to price it?

I could either charge all mages the VHM price and retain the decimal:

M0: [1.05/level]
M1: [1.2/level]
M2: [1.3/level]
M3: [1.5/level]
M4: [1.8/level]
M5: [2.2/level]

Or I could charge all mages for the price of one point at their lowest mana rate:

M0: [1.05/level]
M1: [2.3/level]
M2: [5.2/level]
M3: [12.0/level]
M4: [29.4/level]
M5: [36.1/level]

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jerander.