[Magic/Thaum] Pulling FP from ambient mana

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Very Low Mana (VLM): 11.1% of land area
Low Mana (LM): 22.2% of land area
Normal Mana (NM): 44.5% of land area
High Mana (HM): 22.2% of land area
VHM (VHM): < 0.1% of land area

First, the Accessibility limitation values would be:

"VLM or higher, +0%" (VLM + LM + NM + HM + VHM = 100%)
"LM or higher, -5%" (LM + NM + HM + VHM = 88.9%)
"NM or higher, -15%" (NM + HM + VHM = 66.7%)
"HM or higher, -30%" (HM + VHM = 22.2%)
"VHM only, -50%" (VHM < 0.1%)

Second, the assumption that the recharge rate is a special affect needs to be examined. At a ratio of 3:2 (lower than NM: higher than NM), the ER would recharger slower, on average, than 1-ER/10-mins. But how to weight it?

Okay working with the above assumptions forgetting about different levels of Magery affecting recharge rate. How to model the different recharge rates in different mana areas? Another assumption:

VHM: Recharge instantaneously (as per Powers + Magic).
HM: Rechage @ 1-ER/5-mins.
NM: Recharge @ 1-ER/10-mins.
LM: Recharge @ 1-ER/20-mins.
VLM: Recharge @ 1-ER/40-mins.

VHM: Eyeballed at an additional -15% as per RPK.
HM: Reduced Time 1, +20%
NM: No adjustment
LM: Takes Extra Time 1, -10%
VLM: Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%*

*Special modifier on ERs. Which is about right. Otherwise, I could eyeball 1-ER/40-mins at -15%.

So combining the two modifiers, I'd get:

ER 20 (Accessibility, VLM or higher, +0%; Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%) [48]
ER +20 (Accessibility, LM or higher, -5%; Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, -10%) [51]
ER +40 (Accessibility, NM or higher, -15%) [102]
ER +80 (Accessibility, HM or higher, -30%; Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, +20%) [216]
ER +160 (Accessibility, VHM only, -50%; ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%) [168]

For a point total of

[48] + [51] + [102] + [216] + [168] = [585]

But what to "weighted-average" by?

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

ER 20 (Accessibility, VLM or higher, +0%; Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, -20%) [48]
ER +20 (Accessibility, LM or higher, -5%; Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, -10%) [51]
ER +40 (Accessibility, NM or higher, -15%) [102]
ER +80 (Accessibility, HM or higher, -30%; Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, +20%) [216]
ER +160 (Accessibility, VHM only, -50%; ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%) [168]

For a point total of

[48] + [51] + [102] + [216] + [168] = [585]

But what to "weighted-average" by?

Also, looking at this, I end up with the right-sized ERs in the various mana levels, but the recharge rates don't scale. For example, in HM areas, 20-ER will still have a recharge rate of 1-ER/1-hr., 20-ER @ 1-ER/20-mins, and 40-ER @ 1-ER/10-mins.

Not quite what I'm going for.

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Jerander

ER +160 (Accessibility, VHM only, -50%; automatically recharges due to environment, -15%) [168]

"automatically recharges due to environment" is not a limitation! It would be like taking several levels of Reduced Time as a limitation.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

"automatically recharges due to environment" is not a limitation! It would be like taking several levels of Reduced Time as a limitation.

Fair enough. Poor choice of wording on my part. See:

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

For very high mana, I'd be inclined to give an extra point break because the ER is sort of meaningless -- all energy comes right back to you, so all it measures is your "cap". Because of that, I'm going to say it's worth -65% instead of the normal -50% (why? because that's roughly 1/3 instead of 1/2 -- it's an eyeballed thing)

I'll change the wording of the limitation to "ER kind of meaningless in VHM, -15%" to reflect.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Also, looking at this, I end up with the right-sized ERs in the various mana levels, but the recharge rates don't scale. For example, in HM areas, 20-ER will still have a recharge rate of 1-ER/1-hr., 20-ER @ 1-ER/20-mins, and 40-ER @ 1-ER/10-mins.

Not quite what I'm going for.

Okay, what if I modify the time rates by the Accessibility limitation?

VLM @ 11.1% = Accessibility, -35%
LM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
NM @ 44.5% = Accessibility, -20%
HM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
VHM @ < 0.1% = Accessibility, -50%

Initial example:

ER 20 (Accessibility, VLM or higher, +0%; Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -13%) [52.2 => 53]

So in VLM, it'd recharge @ 1-ER/1-hr, anywhere else @ 1-ER/1-min...What if I do it this way?

ER 20 (Accessibility, VLM or higher, +0%; ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%; Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%) +14%; Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%) -13%; Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, (Accessibiliy, Only in LM, -30%) -7%) [54.6 => 55]

How does that look? I mean, besides clunky? :)

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Jerander

ER 20 (Accessibility, VLM or higher, +0%; ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%; Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins, (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%) +14%; Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr, (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%) -13%; Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins, (Accessibiliy, Only in LM, -30%) -7%) [54.6 => 55]

Okay, building on this idea. For the following "XM and higher" Accessibilities, I have the following Mana Levels, their percentages, and their Accessibility value:

VHM Only

VHM: 100% (Accessibility, +0%)

HM and higher

VHM: < 0.1% (Accessibility, -50%)
HM: 100% (Accessibility, +0%)

NM and higher

VHM: < 0.1% (Accessibility, -50%)
HM: 33.3% (Accessibility, -25%)
NM: 66.7% (Accessibility, -15%)

LM and higher

VHM: < 0.1% (Accessibility, -50%)
HM: 25% (Accessibility, -30%)
NM: 50% (Accessibility, -20%)
LM: 25% (Accessibility, -30%)

VLM and higher

VHM: < 0.1% (Accessibility, -50%)
HM: 22.2% (Accessibility, -30%)
NM: 44.5% (Accessibility, -20%)
LM: 22.2% (Accessibility, -30%)
VLM: 11.1% (Accessibility, -35%)

[Jerander]

Adding in Recharge Rate modifiers with these Accessibilities:

VHM only

VHM: ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

HM and higher

VHM: ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
HM: Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +20%

NM and higher

VHM: ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
HM: Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +15%
NM: No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +0%

LM and higher

VHM: ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
HM: Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
NM: No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
LM: Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%

VLM and higher

VHM: ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
HM: Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
NM: No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
LM: Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%
VLM: Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -13%

[Jerander]

Adding the initial Accessibility limitations:

ER +800 [840]

Accessibility, VHM only, -50%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, +0%), -15%

ER +400 [996]

Accessibility, HM and higher, -30%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, +0%), +20%

ER +200 [558]

Accessibility, NM and higher, -15%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -25%), +15%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -15%), +0%

ER +100 [285]

Accessibility, LM and higher, -5%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%

ER 100 [261]

Acessibility, VLM and higher, +0%
ER kind of meaningless in VHM (Accessibility, Only in VHM, -50%), -7%
Reduced Time 1, 1-ER/5-mins (Accessibility, Only in HM, -30%), +14%
No Time Modifier, 1-ER/10-mins (Accessibility, Only in NM, -20%), +0%
Takes Extra Time 1, 1-ER/20-mins (Accessibility, Only in LM, -30%), -7%
Slow Recharge, 1-ER/1-hr (Accessibility, Only in VLM, -35%), -13%

Now the averaging?

[garfield]

Originally Posted by Jerander

Okay, what if I modify the time rates by the Accessibility limitation?

VLM @ 11.1% = Accessibility, -35%
LM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
NM @ 44.5% = Accessibility, -20%
HM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
VHM @ < 0.1% = Accessibility, -50%

These accessibilities are off: you have to cumulate the percentages, because it is NM or higher. So it should read:
VLM @ 11.1% + 88.9% = 100% = Accessibility, -0%
LM @ 22.2% + 66.7% = 88.9% = Accessibility, -??%
NM @ 44.5% + 22.2% = 66.7% = Accessibility, -??%
HM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
VHM @ < 0.1% = Accessibility, -50%

and from a later post: there should be no -15% for irrelevant ER in VHM, because the ER gives you the much higher total MP that you can use.

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by garfield

These accessibilities are off: you have to cumulate the percentages, because it is NM or higher. So it should read:
VLM @ 11.1% + 88.9% = 100% = Accessibility, -0%
LM @ 22.2% + 66.7% = 88.9% = Accessibility, -??%
NM @ 44.5% + 22.2% = 66.7% = Accessibility, -??%
HM @ 22.2% = Accessibility, -30%
VHM @ < 0.1% = Accessibility, -50%

Depends on where they are being used. The Accessibility modifer for the ER themselves is cumulative, as you say.

The Accessibility modifiers for the Time Rate modifers (Slow Recharge, Takes Extra Time, No Time Modifeir Reduced Time, and ER kind of meaningless in VHW) apply only to those time modifiers in at specific mana levels. Slow Recharge only operates in VLM. Takes Extra Time only operates in LM. Etc. So they are non-cumulative.

Originally Posted by garfield

and from a later post: there should be no -15% for irrelevant ER in VHM, because the ER gives you the much higher total MP that you can use.

See Reverend Pee Kitty's note on that. It's on the first page and I quoted him again later on. That's where the "ER kind of meaningless in VHM" modifier came from.

As for using much higher total MP than someone could use...These numbers will be reduced down to a 1-pt ER (and appropriate CP cost) once I figure out how to average these suckers. Again, see RPK's example on the first page. It's what I'm building off.

On the other hand, I know a couple people who would *love* multiple 100's in MP and gleefully burn through it as fast as it replenishes...but that's a little off topic.