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Old 02-12-2013, 09:39 PM   #41
Tuk the Weekah
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

One thing no one has touched yet: why do you get two chances to defend on a slam (once to block/dodge/parry, once in what is effectively a contest of damage) when you do not get that opportunity (sans Luck) for any other type of attack?
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:21 AM   #42
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah View Post
One thing no one has touched yet: why do you get two chances to defend on a slam (once to block/dodge/parry, once in what is effectively a contest of damage) when you do not get that opportunity (sans Luck) for any other type of attack?
You get a second "defense" (And I disagree with using that term for a case where you're still taking damage either way) against effects like that all the time. You often have to make extra rolls against being stunned or knocked down, for example. Even if they're doing a Push that deals no actual damage, you've got two rolls. You've got Afflictions that require a resistance roll after you've been hit. Almost every attack you can do will frequently involve some second roll to mitigate some of its effects. Slam is not unique here.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:01 PM   #43
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah View Post
One thing no one has touched yet: why do you get two chances to defend on a slam (once to block/dodge/parry, once in what is effectively a contest of damage) when you do not get that opportunity (sans Luck) for any other type of attack?
And to add to Pheonix, realistically speaking, someone is trying to slam or sheild rush you, you will have a chance to either step out of the way, smack them with your sheild to knock them off line, or smack them with your weapon to do the same (dodge/block/parry). THEN, if the first fails, you can still use your skill/strength to oppose their attempt. You are still getting hit, you're just trying to stay on your feet. Makes sense to me...

(I hope my explanation is clear, it sounds clumsy to me, but I can't figure a better way to say it)
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Last edited by ShdwWolf7; 02-14-2013 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:56 PM   #44
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
You get a second "defense" (And I disagree with using that term for a case where you're still taking damage either way) against effects like that all the time. You often have to make extra rolls against being stunned or knocked down, for example. Even if they're doing a Push that deals no actual damage, you've got two rolls. You've got Afflictions that require a resistance roll after you've been hit. Almost every attack you can do will frequently involve some second roll to mitigate some of its effects. Slam is not unique here.
With an Affliction, technically, you are defending against a second attack (the Affliction) triggered by the first attack (the hit--which is a nuisance effect).

With a Slam, you can parry, dodge, or block; failing that, you then roll for the nuisance effect (ie: the damage), and if you win the contest of damage, you will avoid falling down; and, even if you lose the second roll, you get a third opportunity to avoid being knocked over by making a simple DX roll (at a penalty capped at -4).

So you are right, there aren't two chances to avoid the primary attack (ie: being knocked down). There are three.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:34 PM   #45
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah View Post
So you are right, there aren't two chances to avoid the primary attack (ie: being knocked down). There are three.
If you're going to include the damage roll as one of those three, then you get that from normal attacks, too. The technicality of the number of people rolling the damage is irrelevant since the slammed target has no more conscious input into the results of that roll than they do a enemy's one-sided damage roll.
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:44 PM   #46
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
If you're going to include the damage roll as one of those three, then you get that from normal attacks, too. The technicality of the number of people rolling the damage is irrelevant since the slammed target has no more conscious input into the results of that roll than they do a enemy's one-sided damage roll.
Why do you slam someone? To knock them down. Maybe you hurt them, but you're trying to knock them down. They have 3 chances to avoid doing that; including damage, because if you roll more damage defending than I do attacking, you stay standing and I fall down (maybe, if I fail the DX roll).

Why do you hit someone with a fist, foot, or flail? To hurt them, to do damage. They get one defensive roll against that.

But that is neither here nor there. My main point is that the rule as written does not simulate the reality of most situations in which the rule would be used. A properly executed body slam is a transfer of momentum, not an impact. If done properly, there is little or no injury, but big effect.

A shield rush, a flying tackle, a pounce, are all designed to put you off-balance and in a vulnerable position so that the true damaging attack can be brought to the fore. The lion has you pinned to the ground and can crush your windpipe with its bite. The SWAT crowd control officer has knocked you to the ground and can restrain you, or if necessary further subdue you with the baton. The football player can do his little dance while you are on the ground, looking at him.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:43 AM   #47
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by Tuk the Weekah View Post
Why do you slam someone? To knock them down.

Not in GURPS.

A slam is a strike in this game. Full stop. The purpose of a slam is to use your body as a weapon to do damage. If you want to knock someone down, you want to do a Sumo Wrestling Sweep, or a grapple and takedown.

Do not confuse the conventional meaning of the tern for the mechanical resolution here: Slams are strikes. I barely mention them in Technical Grappling, for example. Maybe a dozen mentions of the word.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:22 AM   #48
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Not in GURPS.

A slam is a strike in this game. Full stop. The purpose of a slam is to use your body as a weapon to do damage. If you want to knock someone down, you want to do a Sumo Wrestling Sweep, or a grapple and takedown.
Or a push! Thr (dkb no wound) is not insignificant.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:23 AM   #49
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

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Or a push! Thr (dkb no wound) is not insignificant.
Speaking of which, can one execute a Push attack as a 'charge', getting the usual slam damage plus weapon modifier?
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:27 AM   #50
arconom
 
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Default Re: Slam and Shield Rush rules broken!

If you want someone to fall down, shoot them in the ANYWHERE; Use Judo; Call Terry Tate; Ignore the slam rules.

An extremely simplified combat simulation:

A tackles B
QC A's tackle skill vs B's whatever he decides to use
B adds MoS to DX check to remain upright.

QCs are nice and quick. Less math is better.
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