Heretical idea - D20 rolls

TippetsTX · 12-21-2018, 08:33 AM

I saw this idea on an old TFT site at one point... where they replaced the standard 3-die roll with a single d20. Has anyone here experimented with that? If so, what was the gameplay like and how did you solve for the additional dice mechanic for more difficult tasks?

Terquem · 12-21-2018, 08:43 AM

The Alterinity game system introduced rolling below your attribute score on a d20 and then added modifiers for difficulty in the form of adding/subtracting the value of a second die. So an easy roll might be d20-d8 and a hard roll might be d20+d6

Skarg · 12-21-2018, 11:59 PM

I've tried that, as well as many games that use d20, and I've also studied what it does to the odds.

Just using a d20 has pretty severe consequences. At the very least, you should decide that only a 1 or a 20 should be the auto-hits, let along 3x 2x damage or drop/break results.

Look at an odd chart for 3d6. A 1 has a 5% chance on d20. So does a 20. That means even if you only have 1 and 20 be special results, that means something "special" happens 10% of the time you roll the dice - 1 in 10.

In TFT, doing double or triple damage is less than a 2% chance, as is dropping or breaking your weapon. It still happens plenty often.

The shift for the other numbers is basically that the old meanings of skill get skewed so that even quite skilled people (and people trying easy tasks) miss more, and people who are inept and/or trying hard things succeed more - the results are more random, because there is no "hump of competence" in the middle of the range of typical skills.

In short, I think it works very poorly for my tastes.

JLV · 12-22-2018, 01:49 AM

Ty Beard has proposed (and even has a web site dedicated to) just such a system, along with complete rules for it. You might want to read his stuff (he's got several threads and many posts here on polyhedrals and d20 stuff) if you find it interesting. He's addressed most of the concerns (though I still argue the bell curve is a necessary part of the TFT system, and when you eliminate that, you aren't playing TFT anymore, but something else. Possibly just as cool, but definitely not TFT. But that's just my innate prejudices showing...).

TippetsTX · 12-22-2018, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

Ty Beard has proposed (and even has a web site dedicated to) just such a system, along with complete rules for it.

I think that's were I saw the proposal originally.

P.S. Welcome back to you and Skarg BTW. We've been missing your voices for the last few days.

JLV · 12-27-2018, 08:09 PM

It's that busy end-of-year stuff at work -- keeps me involved 'til all hours of the night, sometimes! ;-)

Oneiros · 03-19-2019, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

I've tried that, as well as many games that use d20, and I've also studied what it does to the odds.

Just using a d20 has pretty severe consequences. At the very least, you should decide that only a 1 or a 20 should be the auto-hits, let along 3x 2x damage or drop/break results.

Look at an odd chart for 3d6. A 1 has a 5% chance on d20. So does a 20. That means even if you only have 1 and 20 be special results, that means something "special" happens 10% of the time you roll the dice - 1 in 10.

In TFT, doing double or triple damage is less than a 2% chance, as is dropping or breaking your weapon. It still happens plenty often.

How old does a thread have to be for a reply to be considered necromancy? :)

One option would be to use an old rule from a previous edition of that well known d20 game, and use confirmation rolls.

Some possible ways to handle it off the top of my head (math not checked, but well below the 5% of a straight 1 or 20 result):

Rolled a 1? Roll again, and a result of 5 below your adjDX is double damage. 10 below or another 1 is triple damage.

Rolled a 20? Roll a again. A roll above your adjDX, drop your weapon. Roll 5 above or another 20, the weapon breaks.

JLV · 03-19-2019, 07:28 PM

If you're interested in going this route, my recommendation is to consult Ty Beard -- he has an entire rules set all worked out on this methodology.

Oneiros · 03-19-2019, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLV

If you're interested in going this route, my recommendation is to consult Ty Beard -- he has an entire rules set all worked out on this methodology.

I was just adding a recommendation regarding this criticism of using d20, not planning on using it myself. Though I’ve since then saw someone suggest simply rolling a d6 to determine what happens for a 1 or 20 roll. 1-3: nothing, 4,5: double damage / drop weapon, 6: triple damage / break weapon. Not exactly the same percentages as 3d6, but pretty close.

Skarg · 03-20-2019, 10:13 AM

Yes, it's a good suggestion, and does address that part of my criticism well. I prefer your version of it because it works in a nice effect of adjDX instead of leaving it entirely the same chance for everyone. I use that sort of mechanic a lot in my house rules.

The other aspect though would still have me not want to use d20 unless I thought the situation I was using it for was one where skill level wasn't as big a determiner of success as it usually is, because it flattens out the odds a lot to be rolling a single die. If used for combat in TFT, it screws up not just what the adjDX values mean, but what the modifiers mean.

I've played enough d10 and d20 game systems to know what that's like and that I don't like it. I like a bell curve's ability to represent not just "some people are better than others" but also "some people are inept, or due to circumstances have very little chance" and also "some people are quite competent and likely to succeed" in a way that I'm really familiar with and like from lots of TFT & GURPS play.

All the more so when playing a game with few hit points, no active defenses, respectable weapon damages, etc like TFT & GURPS. I think d20 fits in more with games where combat is more about a gradual exchange of hitpoints than doing things to hopefully avoid being injured at all.

12-21-2018, 08:33 AM	#1
TippetsTX Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: North Texas	Heretical idea - D20 rolls I saw this idea on an old TFT site at one point... where they replaced the standard 3-die roll with a single d20. Has anyone here experimented with that? If so, what was the gameplay like and how did you solve for the additional dice mechanic for more difficult tasks? __________________ “No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos

12-21-2018, 08:43 AM	#2
Terquem Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Idaho Falls	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls The Alterinity game system introduced rolling below your attribute score on a d20 and then added modifiers for difficulty in the form of adding/subtracting the value of a second die. So an easy roll might be d20-d8 and a hard roll might be d20+d6

12-21-2018, 11:59 PM	#3
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls I've tried that, as well as many games that use d20, and I've also studied what it does to the odds. Just using a d20 has pretty severe consequences. At the very least, you should decide that only a 1 or a 20 should be the auto-hits, let along 3x 2x damage or drop/break results. Look at an odd chart for 3d6. A 1 has a 5% chance on d20. So does a 20. That means even if you only have 1 and 20 be special results, that means something "special" happens 10% of the time you roll the dice - 1 in 10. In TFT, doing double or triple damage is less than a 2% chance, as is dropping or breaking your weapon. It still happens plenty often. The shift for the other numbers is basically that the old meanings of skill get skewed so that even quite skilled people (and people trying easy tasks) miss more, and people who are inept and/or trying hard things succeed more - the results are more random, because there is no "hump of competence" in the middle of the range of typical skills. In short, I think it works very poorly for my tastes.

12-22-2018, 01:49 AM	#4
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls Ty Beard has proposed (and even has a web site dedicated to) just such a system, along with complete rules for it. You might want to read his stuff (he's got several threads and many posts here on polyhedrals and d20 stuff) if you find it interesting. He's addressed most of the concerns (though I still argue the bell curve is a necessary part of the TFT system, and when you eliminate that, you aren't playing TFT anymore, but something else. Possibly just as cool, but definitely not TFT. But that's just my innate prejudices showing...).

12-27-2018, 08:09 PM	#6
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls It's that busy end-of-year stuff at work -- keeps me involved 'til all hours of the night, sometimes! ;-)

03-19-2019, 07:28 PM	#8
JLV Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Arizona	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls If you're interested in going this route, my recommendation is to consult Ty Beard -- he has an entire rules set all worked out on this methodology.

03-20-2019, 10:13 AM	#10
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: Heretical idea - D20 rolls Yes, it's a good suggestion, and does address that part of my criticism well. I prefer your version of it because it works in a nice effect of adjDX instead of leaving it entirely the same chance for everyone. I use that sort of mechanic a lot in my house rules. The other aspect though would still have me not want to use d20 unless I thought the situation I was using it for was one where skill level wasn't as big a determiner of success as it usually is, because it flattens out the odds a lot to be rolling a single die. If used for combat in TFT, it screws up not just what the adjDX values mean, but what the modifiers mean. I've played enough d10 and d20 game systems to know what that's like and that I don't like it. I like a bell curve's ability to represent not just "some people are better than others" but also "some people are inept, or due to circumstances have very little chance" and also "some people are quite competent and likely to succeed" in a way that I'm really familiar with and like from lots of TFT & GURPS play. All the more so when playing a game with few hit points, no active defenses, respectable weapon damages, etc like TFT & GURPS. I think d20 fits in more with games where combat is more about a gradual exchange of hitpoints than doing things to hopefully avoid being injured at all.