[RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

[templar]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yeah, your solution looks pretty good, templar. You may want to consider allowing characters to use up fractional slots with low-power spells (say, half a slot for up to half threshold), but I think it works as-is.

I did consider that, especially since higher levels of ability can greatly increase the Safe Threshold, but opted against it initially to make the variant as easy to use as possible. If I did choose to implement it, I would go 50% but would be hesitant to go lower than that, since the number of Conditional Rituals a mage could call upon might get out of hand.

[templar]

Originally Posted by PK

I understand the concept of what you're trying to do -- you're using the "safe threshold" (ST) value as a gauge for what the standard cost of a spell should be. But doing so overlooks the fact that those ST values are strictly for gathering ambient energy. Most mages will put in a significant amount of energy via sacrificed FP and mana reserve. This is why (e.g.) I suggested a maximum charm size of "10 + 4xST", not simply a multiplier of ST.

In addition, this rule seems to assume a static ST value. What about casters who rely on Ritual Mastery, places of power, grimoires, and workspace kits? The low-skill caster who depends on these bonuses to make conditional rituals is an important character type -- each of MH1 and MH4 featured an entire template built around it. If you're setting the ST based on base skill, it'll create very weird results. For example, take a skill-10, Magery 0 caster with Ritual Mastery (+2) in a weak Place of Power (+2), with a modest grimoire (+3), making a charm with a good workspace kit (+1). His effective skill rises from 10 to 18, raising his ST from 4 to 42! So if he casts a 50-energy ritual, does that occupy 13 slots or 2? (And if it occupies 13, how is that even possible if he only has 10 slots?)

It's an interesting idea, and I think there's some promise in it, but it's important that you consider these angles as well so you aren't blindsided by them.

Whoot, I got the author's response! I am humbled ;-)

I understand what you are saying, but I did not see a better way of handling things. I could simply reduce the number of Conditional Rituals a mage could cast (say Thaumatology halved, or even quartered + Magery rank), but what I am really trying to portray is the concept of spell slots which can vary in power, with higher cost spells consuming additional slots. Reducing the number of slots doesn't achieve this.

PK, do you have any other suggestions that could possibly achieve my goal while satisfying the concerns you raised?

And thanks for the comments, I really appreciate them ;-)

[Varyon]

Actually, your system already handles the issue of different skill levels. The number of slots a spell takes up is set by how many multiples of the threshold it is - so just use the actual threshold for that spell to figure it out. Let's say we've got a character with Path of Energy 14, Path of Matter 13, Path of Mind 12. He's got Ritual Mastery and a +2 grimoire for Fireball, and he's setting up his spells in an aspected Place of Power that gives +3 to Path of Mind. Let's say he wants to set up a few spells - Air Jet, Dull (Sight), Fighting Irons, Fireball, and Hush. Air Jet is Path of Matter, Dull and Hush are Path of Mind, Fighting Irons is the lesser of Path of Matter and Path of Mind, and Fireball is Path of Energy. Here's how they break down:

Air Jet - Threshold is 7 (skill 13), spell is 18, so takes up 3 slots.
Dull/Hush - Threshold is 11 (effective skill 15), Dull is 15, so takes up 2 slots; Hush is 31, so takes up 3 slots.
Fighting Irons - Threshold is 7 (skill 13), spell is 6, so takes up 1 slot.
Fireball - Threshold is 42 (effective skill 18), spell is 18, so takes up 1 slot (or half a slot). The character will probably boost the spell's energy for more damage (a 42 energy fireball does a whopping 9d).

As for other energy sources, you've got a few options. One would be to allow for a certain amount of energy to be added to the threshold based on Magery. Perhaps a better - and easier - option would be to ignore any energy that comes from other sources for calculating the number of slots. In our above example, let's say our mage has Magery 3 (and thus 9 ER). Burning 4 ER drops the "cost" of Air Jet to 14, making it only take up 2 slots. 4 ER drops Dull to 1 slot, 9 ER drops Hush to 2 slots, etc. Any spell that is cast with no gathered energy (our mage could pull this off for Fighting Irons) would take up 1/2 or 1/4 of a slot (whatever the minimum is).

EDIT: As for if the cost of the Lesser Control Magic "wrapper" applies to determining the number of slots, that's up to you. I'd say "no" for simplicity, but it probably won't break anything if you opt to go for it. In the above example, the Greater spells (Air Jet and Fireball) would cost an extra 15 (for ~+2 slots), the Lesser spells would cost an extra 5 (for ~+1 slot).

[templar]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Actually, your system already handles the issue of different skill levels. The number of slots a spell takes up is set by how many multiples of the threshold it is - so just use the actual threshold for that spell to figure it out. Let's say we've got a character with Path of Energy 14, Path of Matter 13, Path of Mind 12. He's got Ritual Mastery and a +2 grimoire for Fireball, and he's setting up his spells in an aspected Place of Power that gives +3 to Path of Mind. Let's say he wants to set up a few spells - Air Jet, Dull (Sight), Fighting Irons, Fireball, and Hush. Air Jet is Path of Matter, Dull and Hush are Path of Mind, Fighting Irons is the lesser of Path of Matter and Path of Mind, and Fireball is Path of Energy. Here's how they break down:

Air Jet - Threshold is 7 (skill 13), spell is 18, so takes up 3 slots.
Dull/Hush - Threshold is 11 (effective skill 15), Dull is 15, so takes up 2 slots; Hush is 31, so takes up 3 slots.
Fighting Irons - Threshold is 7 (skill 13), spell is 6, so takes up 1 slot.
Fireball - Threshold is 42 (effective skill 18), spell is 18, so takes up 1 slot (or half a slot). The character will probably boost the spell's energy for more damage (a 42 energy fireball does a whopping 9d).

As for other energy sources, you've got a few options. One would be to allow for a certain amount of energy to be added to the threshold based on Magery. Perhaps a better - and easier - option would be to ignore any energy that comes from other sources for calculating the number of slots. In our above example, let's say our mage has Magery 3 (and thus 9 ER). Burning 4 ER drops the "cost" of Air Jet to 14, making it only take up 2 slots. 4 ER drops Dull to 1 slot, 9 ER drops Hush to 2 slots, etc. Any spell that is cast with no gathered energy (our mage could pull this off for Fighting Irons) would take up 1/2 or 1/4 of a slot (whatever the minimum is).

EDIT: As for if the cost of the Lesser Control Magic "wrapper" applies to determining the number of slots, that's up to you. I'd say "no" for simplicity, but it probably won't break anything if you opt to go for it. In the above example, the Greater spells (Air Jet and Fireball) would cost an extra 15 (for ~+2 slots), the Lesser spells would cost an extra 5 (for ~+1 slot).

Thanks for the comments and suggestions Varyon. I am running a game Saturday, so I will be able to see if the changes survive contact with the enemy ;-)

[Edges]

If spells can take up more than one slot, you may want to consider giving them more slots. Otherwise, no matter how cool the idea seems to the GM, the players will read it as "Now your character is less powerful."

Maybe each level of Magery gives 3 slots instead of 1.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Edges

If spells can take up more than one slot, you may want to consider giving them more slots. Otherwise, no matter how cool the idea seems to the GM, the players will read it as "Now your character is less powerful."

Maybe each level of Magery gives 3 slots instead of 1.

I'm fairly confident "Now your character is less powerful" is what OP is actually going for. I do agree, however, that increasing the number of Conditional "slots" for this system would be a good idea. I suggested 1.5x the number upthread; I think 3x would give the characters too many slots, but I could be mistaken.

[PK]

You'll note that I recommend increasing the number of slots in a DF-style game, but not by a flat multiplier. IMO, the best way to bump slots is to raise the Magery multiplier alone. That allows dedicated casters to be more effective, without drastically increasing the power of dabblers.

For this system, something like "Thaumatology + (4 x Magery)" would be perfectly reasonable, without breaking anything. It means that non-mage casters become weaker, low-Magery casters remain about the same, and high-Magery casters range from "the same" to "a bit stronger," depending on how well they min-max their energy costs.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by PK

You'll note that I recommend increasing the number of slots in a DF-style game, but not by a flat multiplier.

DF-style casters also probably need a different stacking rule. They should be able to "cast" the same spell more than once per combat.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

DF-style casters also probably need a different stacking rule. They should be able to "cast" the same spell more than once per combat.

Yeah. How about something like this:

Prepared Rituals
A prepared ritual is a special type of conditional ritual that ignores the normal rules for stacking spells and has a special trigger – that of the caster ‘finishing’ the spell.

A prepared ritual follows the normal rules for casting a conditional ritual. This preparation allows the ritual to be finished, finally casting it, at a later date. Finishing a prepared ritual, triggering it, takes significantly less time than casting the ritual anew. In effect, a prepared ritual allows a non-adept to cast a spell as if he were an adept and an adept to cast even faster. A non-adept finishes the spell in 5 seconds times the greater effect multiplier; an adept finishes the spell in 1 second times the greater effect mutliplier.

Unlike normal conditional rituals, after a prepared ritual is cast its conditional ritual slot isn't released – instead, it lies inert until the next daybreak, at which time the slot is released. Alternatively, the caster may meditate for two hours, after which point his inert conditional ritual slots are reset.