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Old 10-29-2013, 01:22 PM   #31
Nosforontu
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Originally Posted by Terwin View Post
(If the target can gather as much energy as the dispelling caster, they would just beef up their effects that much with extra duration or bonuses.
I don't think I can agree with this position especially if the party caster is planning on buffing 3-4 companions with multiple buff effects to cover the various bonus types going into a fight. Why risk additional energy accumulaton rolls after all which could warp my spell in ways that could seriously hinder my party member when I can simply prep it for my expected needs?

Especially when if I am going to change the buff later on for new circumstances I now either have to dispell the spell that I placed on him earlier or make the new buff spell have even more energy than my last one again risking unfortunate quirks/critical failires.


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Originally Posted by Terwin View Post
So clearly the dispel caster against an equal must take a risk that is considered unreasonable by the target to expect to have any effect as they will need to gather at least 7 more energy than is available by taking reasonable risks. This also means that trying to create a dispel to use on a target that is stronger than you are is very hazardous indeed)
Again not really sometimes the caster simply does not wish to push for DR 5 which is a greater effect when he can get away with DR 4 for a fight involving enemies armed with knives and an expected damage out put of a d6.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:28 PM   #32
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

If the party has heavyweight casters in it they probably shouldn't be going up against enemies whose best throw weight is 1d damage
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:39 PM   #33
Nosforontu
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
If the party has heavyweight casters in it they probably shouldn't be going up against enemies whose best throw weight is 1d damage
Probably not but you can certainly adjust those numbers for more detailed circumstances.

Lets assume a fantasy world with a Knight in DR 7 Plate Mail, and a tough skin of DR 2 kicking him up to DR 9. Making him heavily resistant to 2d6 attacks and even 3d6 attacks only deal a point of damage to him on average.

For normal travel mode the Party Wizard uses a spell on the party knight that gives him another DR 4 which means he is effectively immune to 2d6 attacks rarely takes damage from 3d6 attacks and even a 4d6 attack (which depending on a settings power level might be pretty rare most of the time) will on average only do a point of damage to the pc.

Overall though the point remains why assume that every time I am casting my RPM spells that I am pushing my energy accumulation rolls to their limit when I could just cast a spell to be good enough for my needs instead? Why risk energy accumulation rolls that are superfulous to my needs on the off chance of a dispel effect, especially if I have to repeat this high energy spell several times?
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:52 PM   #34
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

The whole dispelling vs multiple buffs thing should probably be split off into its own thread, as this one appears to have been meant to deal with Conditional Rituals, which are a different beast entirely.
That said, I think a previous discussion noted the possibility of area dispel charms (which can be carried around and used by non-mages). I suspect a caster making a charm has access to more energy-reducing options than a mage casting out in the field. That is, you make the charm in a specially prepared - and consecrated - workshop, bring in some good materials, etc, so you can safely create a Dispel Charm that has more energy than you'd be willing to put into a buffing spell.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The whole dispelling vs multiple buffs thing should probably be split off into its own thread, as this one appears to have been meant to deal with Conditional Rituals, which are a different beast entirely.
That said, I think a previous discussion noted the possibility of area dispel charms (which can be carried around and used by non-mages). I suspect a caster making a charm has access to more energy-reducing options than a mage casting out in the field. That is, you make the charm in a specially prepared - and consecrated - workshop, bring in some good materials, etc, so you can safely create a Dispel Charm that has more energy than you'd be willing to put into a buffing spell.
Yep, was going to pose something to the effect. I'll be more than happy to contribute towards it when I get a better understanding of the nuances of the system...
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:54 PM   #36
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
This actually isn't a bad way to go about it. I rather like it actually. I wouldn't use it for most of my games, not because I dislike it, but because I've never had issues with conditional spells (and that's nearly 3 years of using RPM).
Thanks! Glad you like it. It's pretty easy to remember, and solves the issues I had with the mechanics. Thanks again for your input!
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:13 PM   #37
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

Last time I played a powerful spell-caster using the Magic rules, I used Delay, Maintain Spell, and Steal spell to keep several high-impact spells hanging on my party.

With RPM it would be much simpler as I could just add in an extended duration of a day or a week, and then re-up the duration on a regular basis.

As you really only need to cast each spell once per party member(until it gets dispelled), you can afford more risk, especially if you have Luck(Something I would consider almost mandatory for anyone who wants be a powerful RPM caster).

While I am sure not everyone plays this way, that is the scenario I am envisioning when suggesting dispel magics are risky on anyone with similar or higher power.
(as it only takes a few minutes of in-game for an adept to buff the entire party, I would expect this sort of behavior to be pretty common among adepts with path skills > 15)

Than again, the bad guys will probably be happy to sacrifice a few villagers to get the energy they need for those high-powered dispel charms, so any Big Bad caster having a highly potent dispel on hand is not unreasonable.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:21 PM   #38
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Thanks! Glad you like it. It's pretty easy to remember, and solves the issues I had with the mechanics. Thanks again for your input!
Sure. :-) I do what I can.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:21 PM   #39
Nosforontu
 
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

Terwin I have a new thread up to discuss the idea if you want to jump in on it so we do not risk derailing this thread (an unfortuantly common problem for me with RPM ;).

Which apparently the forum ate rather than posting will put one up a bit later today to discuss the issue but have to take care of some errands first
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:57 PM   #40
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Default Re: [RPM] Conditional Rituals (Too Powerful?)

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Originally Posted by templar View Post
Limiting Conditional Rituals
A character can have a number of Conditional Rituals "slots" equal to his Thaumatology + His Magery (as the default system), however each CR that exceeds its safe Threshold costs +1 slot, +2 slots for exceeding twice his safe threshold, +3 slots for more than three times the safe threshold, etc.

Example: Jonas the Seeker is a mage with a Thaumatology of 15 and a Magery of 2; possessing 17 slots for Conditional Rituals. His Safe Threshold is 29. He currently has 4 Rituals prepared: Fireball (31), Fighting Irons (11), Death Touch (63) and Haste 32. This costs Jonas 8 of his 17 slots (1 for Fighting Irons, 2 each for Fireball and Haste, and 3 for Death Touch).
I understand the concept of what you're trying to do -- you're using the "safe threshold" (ST) value as a gauge for what the standard cost of a spell should be. But doing so overlooks the fact that those ST values are strictly for gathering ambient energy. Most mages will put in a significant amount of energy via sacrificed FP and mana reserve. This is why (e.g.) I suggested a maximum charm size of "10 + 4xST", not simply a multiplier of ST.

In addition, this rule seems to assume a static ST value. What about casters who rely on Ritual Mastery, places of power, grimoires, and workspace kits? The low-skill caster who depends on these bonuses to make conditional rituals is an important character type -- each of MH1 and MH4 featured an entire template built around it. If you're setting the ST based on base skill, it'll create very weird results. For example, take a skill-10, Magery 0 caster with Ritual Mastery (+2) in a weak Place of Power (+2), with a modest grimoire (+3), making a charm with a good workspace kit (+1). His effective skill rises from 10 to 18, raising his ST from 4 to 42! So if he casts a 50-energy ritual, does that occupy 13 slots or 2? (And if it occupies 13, how is that even possible if he only has 10 slots?)

It's an interesting idea, and I think there's some promise in it, but it's important that you consider these angles as well so you aren't blindsided by them.
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