05-09-2012, 06:30 AM | #31 |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
You are correct. It only applies to skill rolls.
(And I've never found a high defense to be unbeatable. I routinely face parry skills of 16+ in Cherry Blossom Rain. I'll grant you that parry is easier to get around than dodge, as you can start to stack multi-use penalties on it and you can't parry bullets, but supers generally don't worry about bullets anyway, and any highly skilled character with the right tricks can get around a high defense value).
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
05-09-2012, 07:04 AM | #32 |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
I see that you're right. Strangely, though, Higher Purpose does not have that restriction; it says "dice rolls." We took Daredevil the same way, through misreading. Not that it made a lot of difference; La Gata also could get +1 from Acrobatic Dodge, and she had Acrobatics-19 or so.
Bill Stoddard |
05-09-2012, 07:34 AM | #33 | |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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Higher Purpose (Act Crazy) [5] Ridiculous Luck (Only for critical failures while acting crazy, -80%) [12] Looking at that, it's pretty clear that Daredevil is slightly overpriced in comparison. Probably because it's trying to sell you a package of two unpriced, not-existing-elsewhere advantages. The +1 to skill while taking unnecessary risks, and the rerolling critical failures while taking unnecessary risks. I would prefer to look at those as two separate advantages. The first one can't be worth less than Higher Purpose. And the second doesn't much compare to the Luck advantage. I don't know how many critical failures one can be expected to roll in a ten minute period. It gets to be worth more if your character rolls a lot, or if he's doing something where critical failures are much more important. I would prefer to see it split off into two separate advantages, since that's what it pretty much is. But unlike with Combat Reflexes, here the price is increased because it's sold as a package, probably because it's not exactly duplicable somewhere else. The biggest problem with it is the leveled version from Supers. Since it's two separate advantages, you're purchasing the critical failure rerolls part (which makes up the bulk of the cost) multiple time for no reason. Just compare it to Higher Purpose, which is only five points per level. I just figured you had probably house ruled it. That's probably what I would do if anyone ever wanted to take it outside of DF, where I don't like messing with things too much. I'm actually playing a speedster right now, and I looked into all this when making that character. I went with Daredevil, but only because the consequences would be disastrous if she were to have a critical failure. She could slam into something, causing a twelve megaton explosion. And so I'm paying a premium to reroll all critical failures, rather than one every ten minutes with Ridiculous Luck. There's no other way in the system to do something that. There's no way that I can see to purchase an advantage to only reroll failures that would result in an accidental multimegaton explosion. |
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05-09-2012, 08:17 AM | #34 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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In any case, if the problem is high dodge, why didn't the GM hit her with high skill (A skill 30 swordmaster could drop that dodge to 8 with a major deceptive attack. A feint would likely be even better, as she doesn't sound like she has high combat skills to compensate), or sweeping area attacks (the classic hulk-tactic for defeating speeders: destroy all the ground around you and hammer out shockwaves with your fist). Never mind tricks like mind control or malediction-based attacks. "You can't hit me" doesn't seem to be more game-breaking than "You can't hurt me," less actually, since you have more tools at your disposal to crack very high defenses than you have to crack very high DR.
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05-09-2012, 08:21 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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Ultimately, I think you should look at Daredevil as a specialized and more constantly available form of luck.
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05-09-2012, 08:35 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
I've never heard that before. I use it mainly for either offensive purposes, such as landing an attack (maybe trying for a crit if it's important) or a spell (I need to succeed by more!), or for defensive purposes, like on a parry or a failed resistance roll. Only rarely do I use it for critical failures. Normal failures, sure, quite often, but critical ones? Not more than regular failures, I'd say. A failed defense roll is a failed defense roll. That axe doesn't care whether your head is in the way because you only slightly failed.
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Last edited by ErhnamDJ; 05-09-2012 at 08:46 AM. |
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05-09-2012, 09:01 AM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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And, you know, to some degree, I think there's a difference between "you come up against someone who's a speedster or a combat monster, who has attack skills high enough to compensate for your defenses" and "every random brick or blaster you meet just happens to have Attack-25." Bill Stoddard |
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05-09-2012, 09:09 AM | #38 | |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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05-09-2012, 09:28 AM | #39 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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Secondly, no, Attack 25 isn't all that strange. If you flip through the comics, you'll find extreme-level fighters again and again. Captain America is certainly an extra-ordinarily skilled fighter (your GURPS Supers puts a Man Plus at DX 20), as is Spider-man. The Marvel site puts Thor at maxed fighting skill. So presumably, all three of these characters could go toe to toe with your speedster pretty reasonably well. Oh, and Hawkeye would presumably have an Archery skill of 30. But more to the point, supers stories are all about weird powers and strange solutions. A pyrokinetic who sweeps flames through an entire area doesn't care if you "dodge" his attacks, because his attacks are everywhere. Storm doesn't care how fast you're zipping around because her winds are still hammering you with huge penalties, you're slipping and skidding on ice, and lightning's going to hit you at some point. Cyclops turns on the wide-beam attack and forces you to deal with an AoE attack. Professor Xavier just looks at her and she stops because that's what Mind Control does. We've got time manipulation powers, other speedsters, curses, massive auras of doom, falling buildings, mass swarms of robots armed with super-accurate lasers, and so on. It's not particularly out of genre for villains to suddenly start bringing lots of high skill attacks, AoE attacks or maledictions. No, I take that back, but the only "out of genre" element would be the word "suddenly." Supers should always feature villains with obscene DX, enhanced time sense, maledictions, AoE attacks (part and parcel of being any kind of super, really). If Dodge 16 is breaking your game, then someone's doing something wrong. Supers is a lot like Dungeon Fantasy that way: It thrives on unusual fights with unusual characters who have extreme capabilities. (Not the mooks, of course, but everyone can defeat guys with guns. If you can't casually defeat guys with guns, you're not a super).
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. Last edited by Mailanka; 05-09-2012 at 09:31 AM. |
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05-09-2012, 09:42 AM | #40 | ||
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands
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Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers
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You'll note, of course, that Luck has some advantages, but I've noted those advantages. I think they're cancelled out by the fact that if you roll three critical failures in a row, Luck won't help you, but Daredevil will. Quote:
But what about just not taking cover and returning fire. Is that covered by Daredevil? Or leaving cover to charge the enemy, but doing it in a sweeping manner that avoids most of their fire? Is that covered by daredevil? The example gives us two extremes and nothing in the middle. If you interpret it to mean "taking risks," then Daredevil is a very broad advantage. And what about context? Is charging at men with automatic weapons all that suicidal when you have a DR of 200? Does your daredevil activate then? Because Bill's character was gaining the benefit while she had a Dodge of 16 and a Basic Move of 12, which would get her up to those guys in a heartbeat and avoided all of their fire. She's following the letter of that example. Should she get the benefit? I think it's safe to say, personally, that Daredevil covers a lot more than just suicidal actions. I think that fits the wording of daredevil: If you're taking an "unnecessary risk," you gain the +1 bonus. Going after 10 men armed with automatic weapons with nothing but a pistol and some grit, does that count as an "unnecessary risk" even if you take cover? That's open to interpretation, and I think that's good, but I think it covers more than you suggest it does.
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My Blog: Mailanka's Musing. Currently Playing: Psi-Wars, a step-by-step exploration of building your own Space Opera setting, inspired by Star Wars. |
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