To save your soul, I'll kill you...

Methariel · 03-22-2005, 12:07 PM

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen!

For a time now I'm thinking of an adventure idea which I'd like to develop into a full fledged adventure. I think it works best with at least one Servitor of Destiny among the characters - or with one of War.
The plot idea that's in my head is the following: A Malakite of Destiny thinks to have found a fool-proof way to ensure that someone who's reached his Destiny won't also meet his Fate and so invariably goes up to Heaven. That way is quite simple: After registering somebody as having found Destiny and not having met Fate, she kills the person.
Am I the only one who feels that this sort of behaviour "is just not okay with the Shepherds"?
At least that's the reaction I hope to produce. For isn't that a cheap method of bringing souls to Heaven? Shouldn't people choose their way, stay on it and not just be "tricked" into it?
Well, I'd like to have your opinions on that idea. Do you think it's a good one or some B-movie sh..?

Methariel

Glamourweaver · 03-22-2005, 01:05 PM

Definetly not ok with the Shepherds. Great idea for an Angelic villain who's lost his perspective though isn't necissarily Dissonant.

If you need an Destiny-based reason why the Shepherds oppose such actions (not just the obvious compassion & "Thou Shalt Not Murder" ones), try this: Beings who've reached THEIR Destiny still have a part to play in the Divine Plan inspiring & touching the lives of others. Ending their lives prematurally disrupts the ability of others to reach their Destinies (though not directly enough to be Dissonant for the killer... unless you want to play it that way :)

William · 03-22-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glamourweaver

Definetly not ok with the Shepherds. Great idea for an Angelic villain who's lost his perspective though isn't necissarily Dissonant.

If you need an Destiny-based reason why the Shepherds oppose such actions (not just the obvious compassion & "Thou Shalt Not Murder" ones), try this: Beings who've reached THEIR Destiny still have a part to play in the Divine Plan inspiring & touching the lives of others. Ending their lives prematurally disrupts the ability of others to reach their Destinies (though not directly enough to be Dissonant for the killer... unless you want to play it that way :)

Exactly the way I'd play it. Suppose someone's Destiny is to write a book on philosophy. If they write the book, they've achieved their Destiny. If they haven't achieved their Fate and you off them, they go to Heaven. However, the reason this was a Destiny was that the book would be good for people to read, so if the book is never published, and the author isn't around to publicize it and so forth, fewer people read it. So offing him lessens the impact of his Destiny.

If there were a calculus of such things, I would say that in almost any such case, the automatic gain of one soul is less of an improvement over the risk that a Destined soul would achieve Fate than would be enough to equal the loss of potential for Destiny in numerous future souls. Under this calculus, Heaven would be more likely to off Fated, Hellsworn, and so forth. (Mercurians, of course, are under divine orders to care about every individual human.)

zogo · 03-22-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

(Mercurians, of course, are under divine orders to care about every individual human.)

Les Temoins are also under (less strict) orders to care about each human. I believe that the angels of destiny would still work to promote the destinies of people who were Fated to give them another chance. Althoughkilling humans is an option open to (non-mercurian) Shepards

From the strict pragmatic point of view every Fated who escapes hell means less Essence hell has to wage their war against Heaven.

tylrlsaa · 03-22-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zogo

Les Temoins are also under (less strict) orders to care about each human. I believe that the angels of destiny would still work to promote the destinies of people who were Fated to give them another chance. Althoughkilling humans is an option open to (non-mercurian) Shepards

From the strict pragmatic point of view every Fated who escapes hell means less Essence hell has to wage their war against Heaven.

ISTR that when a servitor of Destiny finds someone who's fulfilled their Fate, they try very hard to nudge that person into fulfilling their Destiny as well, under that idea of denying Hell a human soul.

banditangel · 03-27-2005, 02:02 AM

Celestial Intervention can "reset" a Destiny or Fate. I do not believe there is anything in canon that says this "reset" can only occur *before* one of them is met. So if you kill them, it might cause them to go back for another spin on ye ol' Wheel Of Life (now with even fabulouser[sic] prizes!)

There could also just be a Gentleman's agreement: Kronos doesn't kill the Fated, and Yves doesn't kill the Destined. Both sides are intelligent enough to realize that the only result of both sides killing their "chosen" is to reduce celestial influence on the mortal realm as a whole. Admittedly, Saminga would probably approve of this sort of slaughter.

For angels, it strikes me as being in the category of "not technically dissonant, but none-the-less blatantly evil." It's quite possible Lucifer wasn't dissonant when he Fell - he was certainly clean while he was fermenting the Rebellion in the first place. So, there's definently precident that skirting the dissonance rules doesn't give you a "get out of jail free" card. On the other hand, demons don't have any such worries, unless Lucifer or their DP objects to the activity - if this is the only thing stopping angels, then Servitors of Yves probably have their hands busy stopping Fate's agents from offing those who have reached their fate!

All that aside, there's probably going to be exceptions to all of this, so one could certainly build an adventure where things are set up so that the characters have their superior's permission *and* the Destiny is such that it wouln't be reset.

(I'd also point out that if the only drawback is "reducing" the influence of someone's destiny, this is going to be a relatively more common, but still rare, tactic - there's going to be a few clear-cut situations where it's better to reduce the destiny than risk fate, and probably a few more where the destiny will actually be heightened by eliminating the mortals ability to undo the good they just caused - for example, stopping them from publishing a sequel that causes everyone to dismiss the author as insane/bigotted, or which just ruins the characters enough to hurt the first book. I expect most people who hit their destinies are best left alive, though, at least from heaven's perspective)

Hmmm, one last thought: If killing a Destined will "reset" that destiny, you might see agents of Kronos actively *trying* to reset the destiny. Having to protect a Destined individual long enough for it to be *assured* would be an interesting challenge.

Sagitta · 09-10-2005, 11:09 AM

To reach one's destiny is to do all the best things that one can do, and usually that should take most of one's life. Writing a single book on philosophy isn't enough, unless the author only has the potential to write one book.

To take an example from the rulebook, Hitler could have fulfilled his hypothetical destiny if he spent his whole working life decorating and his retirement teaching. Our hypothetical Malakite could have killed him when he was too old and decrepit to continue teaching, but by then he would have escaped his fate anyway.

Now don't even mention Godwin's Law.

ScaredofScissors · 09-14-2005, 02:32 PM

I think it's a great idea for a plotline, especially if you have an Angel who has the role of a serial killer (disturbance avoidance!). There are plenty of such human killers who believe they're "saving" the innocent or "punishing" the wicked. I believe someone posted a story on the In Nomine list with a similar hook a while back.

I think it'd be the most fun if there really isn't any directive from Heaven - let the PCs reach their own conclusions and solutions. If you don't like what they come up with, -then- have Heaven give them the smack-down.

And, if you want to be really twisted, have the murdered not end up where they were "supposed" to be. Maybe the Angel antagonist doesn't have quality intelligence!

03-22-2005, 12:07 PM	#1
Methariel Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Freiburg i. Brsg., Germany	To save your soul, I'll kill you... Good evening, ladies and gentlemen! For a time now I'm thinking of an adventure idea which I'd like to develop into a full fledged adventure. I think it works best with at least one Servitor of Destiny among the characters - or with one of War. The plot idea that's in my head is the following: A Malakite of Destiny thinks to have found a fool-proof way to ensure that someone who's reached his Destiny won't also meet his Fate and so invariably goes up to Heaven. That way is quite simple: After registering somebody as having found Destiny and not having met Fate, she kills the person. Am I the only one who feels that this sort of behaviour "is just not okay with the Shepherds"? At least that's the reaction I hope to produce. For isn't that a cheap method of bringing souls to Heaven? Shouldn't people choose their way, stay on it and not just be "tricked" into it? Well, I'd like to have your opinions on that idea. Do you think it's a good one or some B-movie sh..? Methariel __________________ "In matters of grave importance, style, not sincerity, is the vital thing." (Oscar Wilde, "The Importance of Being Earnest" , act 3)

03-22-2005, 01:05 PM	#2
Glamourweaver Join Date: Feb 2005	Re: To save your soul, I'll kill you... Definetly not ok with the Shepherds. Great idea for an Angelic villain who's lost his perspective though isn't necissarily Dissonant. If you need an Destiny-based reason why the Shepherds oppose such actions (not just the obvious compassion & "Thou Shalt Not Murder" ones), try this: Beings who've reached THEIR Destiny still have a part to play in the Divine Plan inspiring & touching the lives of others. Ending their lives prematurally disrupts the ability of others to reach their Destinies (though not directly enough to be Dissonant for the killer... unless you want to play it that way :)

03-27-2005, 02:02 AM	#6
banditangel Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Portland, OR	Re: To save your soul, I'll kill you... Celestial Intervention can "reset" a Destiny or Fate. I do not believe there is anything in canon that says this "reset" can only occur before one of them is met. So if you kill them, it might cause them to go back for another spin on ye ol' Wheel Of Life (now with even fabulouser[sic] prizes!) There could also just be a Gentleman's agreement: Kronos doesn't kill the Fated, and Yves doesn't kill the Destined. Both sides are intelligent enough to realize that the only result of both sides killing their "chosen" is to reduce celestial influence on the mortal realm as a whole. Admittedly, Saminga would probably approve of this sort of slaughter. For angels, it strikes me as being in the category of "not technically dissonant, but none-the-less blatantly evil." It's quite possible Lucifer wasn't dissonant when he Fell - he was certainly clean while he was fermenting the Rebellion in the first place. So, there's definently precident that skirting the dissonance rules doesn't give you a "get out of jail free" card. On the other hand, demons don't have any such worries, unless Lucifer or their DP objects to the activity - if this is the only thing stopping angels, then Servitors of Yves probably have their hands busy stopping Fate's agents from offing those who have reached their fate! All that aside, there's probably going to be exceptions to all of this, so one could certainly build an adventure where things are set up so that the characters have their superior's permission and the Destiny is such that it wouln't be reset. (I'd also point out that if the only drawback is "reducing" the influence of someone's destiny, this is going to be a relatively more common, but still rare, tactic - there's going to be a few clear-cut situations where it's better to reduce the destiny than risk fate, and probably a few more where the destiny will actually be heightened by eliminating the mortals ability to undo the good they just caused - for example, stopping them from publishing a sequel that causes everyone to dismiss the author as insane/bigotted, or which just ruins the characters enough to hurt the first book. I expect most people who hit their destinies are best left alive, though, at least from heaven's perspective) Hmmm, one last thought: If killing a Destined will "reset" that destiny, you might see agents of Kronos actively trying to reset the destiny. Having to protect a Destined individual long enough for it to be assured would be an interesting challenge.

09-10-2005, 11:09 AM	#7
Sagitta Join Date: Aug 2005	Re: To save your soul, I'll kill you... To reach one's destiny is to do all the best things that one can do, and usually that should take most of one's life. Writing a single book on philosophy isn't enough, unless the author only has the potential to write one book. To take an example from the rulebook, Hitler could have fulfilled his hypothetical destiny if he spent his whole working life decorating and his retirement teaching. Our hypothetical Malakite could have killed him when he was too old and decrepit to continue teaching, but by then he would have escaped his fate anyway. Now don't even mention Godwin's Law.

09-14-2005, 02:32 PM	#8
ScaredofScissors Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Western MA	Re: To save your soul, I'll kill you... I think it's a great idea for a plotline, especially if you have an Angel who has the role of a serial killer (disturbance avoidance!). There are plenty of such human killers who believe they're "saving" the innocent or "punishing" the wicked. I believe someone posted a story on the In Nomine list with a similar hook a while back. I think it'd be the most fun if there really isn't any directive from Heaven - let the PCs reach their own conclusions and solutions. If you don't like what they come up with, -then- have Heaven give them the smack-down. And, if you want to be really twisted, have the murdered not end up where they were "supposed" to be. Maybe the Angel antagonist doesn't have quality intelligence!