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Old 07-21-2018, 01:21 PM   #1
Dragondog
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Default TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

If one faction can craft TL4 muscle powered melee weapons and another faction can craft TL7 muscle powered melee weapons. Does that difference even matter (beyond the automatic Fine quality for the latter faction)? And if it does, what difference does it make? Such as increased damage, lowered weight, different material composition, etc.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Different material composition is at least part of why you get the automatic Fine/cheaper Very Fine and the consequent increased damage. I think High Tech has some info on special-purpose compositions like stainless steel, which are generally inferior to steel in core weapon performance but can have other advantages.


The other difference that matters a lot is base wealth. A TL7 society can readily afford a golf bag full of swords for every man, woman and child. A TL4 society not so much. That doesn't so much change the weapons, though.

Historically, most TL7 societies have had a significant loss of skill in the design and construction of larger melee weapons, due to the very small market for such things. But the TL system doesn't really handle that.
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Old 07-21-2018, 01:41 PM   #3
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

That automatic fine/very fine is the difference (with weapons).

If these two societies war often the TL 7 side will adopt weapon breaking tactics. Carrying an axe or mace in one hand (or heavy sword) and a weapon breaker in the other (a parrying short-sword designed to catch weapons).

If you want a more dramatic difference you can give the TL 7 weapons an armor divisor or bonus damage against the TL 3 metal armors (they don;t get these normally).

You should probably also give the TL 7 side it's TL 5, 6, and 7 metal armors.
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Old 07-21-2018, 02:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Yeah we can easily turn out a million Good weapons but in GURPS terms there's no difference at the Very Fine level IMO.

For swords, there really isn't a better material than steel, it's the wonder substance with strength, flexibility and hardness. For something like polearms, we might be able to improve on them slightly with materials that are more resistant to chopping than wood for the shaft and super dense & hard spikes for armour penetration.
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Old 07-21-2018, 03:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
Yeah we can easily turn out a million Good weapons but in GURPS terms there's no difference at the Very Fine level IMO.
Except being 5-fold cheaper, don't forget.
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Old 07-21-2018, 04:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

In GURPS terms, TL7 material improvements will be a lot more important for armor than for melee weapons.

To paraphrase what someone said, at TL7 Buddy K and Cold Steel can put "good" quality weapons in hands by the truckload. But they aren't really that much deadlier than a well-made TL4 blade, if at all.
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Most of the steel swords that are mass produced today are actually worse than what was used in the past because they weren't made with the intention of actually using them in battle. Those in the industry call them "wall hangers" or SLOs ("sword-like objects"). However it is a lot easier to make a functional sword today than in the past if one so desired. There is no difference in performance between a good quality TL3 sword and a good quality TL7 sword. The difference is in the cost of raw materials and the manufacture time.

The best steels today weren't available in the past but they don't make any difference to the balance or damage of a weapon. They affect the ease of breakage, the ability to retain an edge, and the level of corrosion resistance.
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Old 07-21-2018, 08:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The best steels today weren't available in the past but they don't make any difference to the balance or damage of a weapon. They affect the ease of breakage, the ability to retain an edge, and the level of corrosion resistance.
Well, that doesn't directly affect damage. It allows changes in design that might affect damage.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragondog View Post
Does that difference even matter (beyond the automatic Fine quality for the latter faction)?
Isn't automatic Fine quality enough? +1 damage and more resistant to breakage are pretty valuable.

However, I'm a fan of the economy approach, using the relative starting wealth of each faction. Essentially the TL 4 faction will have good-quality swords only in the hands of the rich, while the TL 7 faction will be able to equip everyone to the standard of TL 4's elites, and the TL 7 elites would have easier access to very-fine swords, or balanced weapons, or generally other upgrades will be more affordable for them.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: TL4 vs. TL7 melee weapons

The big advantage is not only the sheer volume of weapons TL7 can produce over TL4 , but also armour .
A TL7 manufacturing base could so completely outproduce a TL4 opponent that even if the higher tech is somehow limited to TL4 weapons , armour and transport on the battlefield the lower tech culture would have almost no hope of winning a war against the higher unless there is some other glaring discrepancy in their favour {vast difference in population or radical difference in quality of leadership for example} .
I wouldn't be surprised if a TL7 culture could outfit even 10 times the number of troops in plate than TL4 . Remember , TL 7 polities require only a small fraction of the population {orders of magnitude fewer !} to produce food and thus can afford to place far more people into every other industry ; including full time soldiering .
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