[MA:TG] Hooking

[chandley]

Some questions:

A hooking weapon "inflicts CP" at "+2 per die". On TG page 14, a pole arm or scythe is a melee weapon, and inflicts CP based on Trained ST, using 2 hands, and at +2 per die for a rigid weapon. So, what is the final tally of CP? Am I at thrust for Trained ST (slow progression) with +2 per die for a rigid weapon and +2 per die for a hook, totaling +4 per die?

To actually hook something, I roll at skill-5 (improved with the hooking technique). I take full hit location penalties for striking, not grappling. With a sharp hook, I may end up inflicting some cutting damage, in addition to my CP. Once I have some CP, I can "use any technique that defaults off of ST".

Valid techniques thus are:
Choke or Strangle (Default: ST)
Neck Snap (Default: ST-4)
Wrench (Limb) (Default: ST-4)
Disarming (Default: prerequisite skill based on ST, as allowed on p. 13)
Beat (Default: prerequisite skill based on ST)
Shoving People Around (QC of Trained ST)

You cant Wrench Spine because you cant do a Pickup (which defaults to Trained HT). Notably missing from the list is Force Posture Change or Change Position, meaning you dont really have a method of getting someone on the ground, except, I suppose, by using the special call out rule in Martial Arts p. 74 or Low-Tech p. 54 (QC of ST to force him from standing to kneeling, or kneeling to prone). This is unsatisfying because it seems like I have to use a special rule in this one case, despite rolling for CP.
Note: The table on p.19 says Force Posture Change defaults to "ST, DX, any grappling skill" but the entry under techniques on p. 37 says Default is DX or unarmed grappling skill. So this might be an errata. The description says I can use Trained ST, but the technique doesnt _default_ to ST, and so seems forbidden to a hooking weapon. Ditto for Change Position.

Also I cant tell if Low-Techs rule on p.54 that has hooking weapons ignore the -2 for using a non-fencing/trapping weapon and gives +2 to hooking weapons for Instant Disarm attempts has been invalidated in MA:TG's Instant Disarm (which only gives a bonus to trapping weapons, not hooking ones).

What I feel like I want to do, using Technical Grappling rules and a hooking weapon, is make a Hook attack (skill -5) against someones leg (-2 to hit). If I hit, inflict cutting damage and CP based on my weapon. Next attack, spend all those CP to do a Force Posture Change with me using Trained ST and them being penalized by any shock, by active control, and by double my cp spend (they should be unstable if I scored more than 2 CP in my hook attack on their leg). It just doesnt read as being allowed...

Instead, it seems like what I would do is hook the leg and the use Wrench Leg to try and cripple the leg and cause him to fall down. Which is funny and all, but I might as well just cut the leg off or bash it with my weapon.

[DouglasCole]

Force Posture Change is allowed. I'll get back to you on the rest of the stuff eventually (Turkey Day week, on vacation, etc).

I need to see if I meant the +2 per die for hooking to be the same +2 per die you get for a rigid weapon. +4 per die seems a bit much.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by chandley

Some questions:

A hooking weapon "inflicts CP" at "+2 per die". On TG page 14, a pole arm or scythe is a melee weapon, and inflicts CP based on Trained ST, using 2 hands, and at +2 per die for a rigid weapon. So, what is the final tally of CP? Am I at thrust for Trained ST (slow progression) with +2 per die for a rigid weapon and +2 per die for a hook, totaling +4 per die?

More than double rolled damage (+4 per die) is too much of a boost. I'm fairly sure the +2 per die I mention under Hooking is the same +2 for rigid.

To actually hook something, I roll at skill-5 (improved with the hooking technique). I take full hit location penalties for striking, not grappling. With a sharp hook, I may end up inflicting some cutting damage, in addition to my CP. Once I have some CP, I can "use any technique that defaults off of ST".

this all seems to track.

Valid techniques thus are:
Choke or Strangle (Default: ST)
Neck Snap (Default: ST-4)
Wrench (Limb) (Default: ST-4)
Disarming (Default: prerequisite skill based on ST, as allowed on p. 13)
Beat (Default: prerequisite skill based on ST)
Shoving People Around (QC of Trained ST)

You cant Wrench Spine because you cant do a Pickup (which defaults to Trained HT). Notably missing from the list is Force Posture Change or Change Position,

As I mentioned upthread, Force Posture change (which is Takedown renamed) is one of those things anyone can do. the wierdness on p. 37 is because if you want to get better at it as a technique it's only based on DX or skill, not ST. But the skill/maneuver list on p. 19 is accurate in that it counts as defaulting to ST for the purposes of takedowns and who does what.

I knew there was an obscure reason why this was odd. thanks for letting me re-discover it!

It's a quibble and quite a split-hair, but that's what's behind it. The list under Techniques is for things you can raise as a technique, and when you raise it via Technique Mastery, you don't raise the ST part of it.

Ditto for Change Position.

and ditto for change position. It counts as defaulting for ST as a maneuver, but not as a Technique.

my battery is seconds from death, so I'll send this and continue later.

[vicky_molokh]

Yeah, +4/die does seem hella scary. The Shock + Forced Change Posture is powerful all by its own. And then there's the fact that it's a ranged grapple in TG, and thus makes movement harder, potentially at Reach 2 or even 3 for longer weapons.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

As I mentioned upthread, Force Posture change (which is Takedown renamed) is one of those things anyone can do. the wierdness on p. 37 is because if you want to get better at it as a technique it's only based on DX or skill, not ST.

Hmm. TG28 says

Originally Posted by TG28

Special
Exercises (Lifting ST 1) replaces the Power
Grappling perk (see Martial Arts, p. 51) in
Technical Grappling if the GM decides
Power Grappling is redundant with
Trained ST

Seems like it isn't redundant in just this sort of cases.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It counts as defaulting for ST as a maneuver, but not as a Technique.

my battery is seconds from death, so I'll send this and continue later.

I'm finding the above statement as potentially more confusing than clarifying, but I understand the limits of quick-posting on a low battery. Just thought I should point this out just in case.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Hmm. TG28 says
Seems like it isn't redundant in just this sort of cases.

That has nothing to do with anything. It's not that ST doesn't help, it's that you don't raise it with the rules for raising techniques. In fact, unless you buy technique mastery this entire discussion is moot anyway, sine the QC is based on ST DX or best grappling skill.

I'm finding the above statement as potentially more confusing than clarifying, but I understand the limits of quick-posting on a low battery. Just thought I should point this out just in case.

When choosing an action the ability to roll vs. Trained ST satisfies the requirement that only simple moves are encouraged with hooking. When getting better at FPC as a technique/skill, I didn't want a 1-point per level way to boost ST and if you train takedowns put this as skill/technique and precluded ST.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

That has nothing to do with anything. It's not that ST doesn't help, it's that you don't raise it with the rules for raising techniques. In fact, unless you buy technique mastery this entire discussion is moot anyway, sine the QC is based on ST DX or best grappling skill.

I brought it up specifically for granting the option to make a ST-based grappling roll instead of the usual DX-based one (e.g. ST-based Judo Throw for unarmed fighters). If ST>DX, then not having Technique Mastery still doesn't make it superfluous. This is where the Perk is still not redundant.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I brought it up specifically for granting the option to make a ST-based grappling roll instead of the usual DX-based one (e.g. ST-based Judo Throw for unarmed fighters). If ST>DX, then not having Technique Mastery still doesn't make it superfluous. This is where the Perk is still not redundant.

You are always free to do it that wat in your games, but this isn't going away. Ever. It's also a question based on an off topic derail.

[chandley]

Thanks Doug, appreciate the clarification. I had suspected that +4/die was waaaay to much, but I wasnt going to complain if I was wrong.

So, could I, for the sake of my own sanity, say that you can do anything that allows a roll based on ST with hooking? I think the only eyebrow raiser that would allow would be Bear Hug (which is a ST based default and allowed anyway, but might fail Rule 0). Though if you can throttle someone with a hook, perhaps an argument can be made for Bear Hug.

Also, as a follow up, what about the Instant Disarm thing? Low-Tech allows hooks to hit the weapon at full skill and get a +2 to the QC to instant disarm. That seems to only apply to trapping weapons in TG. This a deliberate change to hooks?

Totally new question: Would a Skill Adaptation perk be enough to allow Judo Throw off of a grapple with a hook? Judo Throw to Melee Weapon or Judo Throw to Hook maybe?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by chandley

Thanks Doug, appreciate the clarification. I had suspected that +4/die was waaaay to much, but I wasnt going to complain if I was wrong.

So, could I, for the sake of my own sanity, say that you can do anything that allows a roll based on ST with hooking? I think the only eyebrow raiser that would allow would be Bear Hug (which is a ST based default and allowed anyway, but might fail Rule 0). Though if you can throttle someone with a hook, perhaps an argument can be made for Bear Hug.

The guidance is to limit the amount of fancy you can do. So your ST-based concept is what I was going for, subject to Rule Zero.

Totally new question: Would a Skill Adaptation perk be enough to allow Judo Throw off of a grapple with a hook? Judo Throw to Melee Weapon or Judo Throw to Hook maybe?

Definitely.

[Gef]

Don't forget Sweep. You don't need to Hook first, but if you do, you can spend CP to make it work better, and if you Hook the leg, the control points you spend are twice as effective.

My understanding is that while there may only be certain maneuvers you can initiate with a Hook, if you have some other means to initiate a different maneuver, you can spend CP from the Hook to influence the outcome. -GEF