DF Artillery Mages Noodling

[b-dog]

I think the problem I have with GURPS Wizards inDF I that I think that there are two types of PCs; the routine PCs and the extraordinary PC. The fighters are routine PCs in that can attack often and do the routine stuff in a dungeon. The thief is also routine as he checks for traps and scouts ahead for danger etc. The cleric tends to be routine in curing wounds and removing curses etc. But the wizard is extraordinary, he has godlike powers and can do almost anything. To balance this his magic powers are not routine and they can be used endlessly he needs to wait until the big battle to unleash his power so he relies on his routine PC fellow delvers to help him explore the dungeon and defend him until the big battle. The wizard in my mind does not use magic for trifle purposes so he won't use magic to detect traps or open locks unless absolutely necessary. He will instead rely on the party thief to do routine tasks. The wizard in my mind is like the one in the movie Dragonslayer or even like Gandalf who uses routine hobbits and dwarves to help him destroy the ring.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

However, a group of people who want constant bolt-chucking wouldn't like that. For them, I'd recommend the other solution offered here, or just using Magical Bolt from Dungeon Fantasy 11. If Magical Bolt seems too weak, change damage from nd(∞) to 2.5nd; it'll cost the same. If the GM doesn't mind a steady stream of zero-FP-cost 4d bolts that can't miss the target, then that's a fair use of 40 points.

I've also considered just allowing mages to buy pure innate attacks that mimic the form and damage type of their existing missile spells. Maybe limit it to the number of points you have in the parent spell and buy it as an alternate ability, so to have a really awesome innate fireball you also have to be pretty good at the core spell. (Less for balance than for flava.)

I went with the Heroic Archer mimicking route instead more out of an personal distrust of the innate attack build system than anything else.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

My solution is and has always been to have everybody start out equally in need of prep. Warriors have to draw weapons, ready shields, and close the gap; that takes a turn or two.

I run a dungeon-based DF game; everyone always has weapons out already. Even the wizards, who know not to rely on distance and "I"ll have time to cast" for their own survival. ;)

That said, what would be a fair cost for the Artillery Mage enhancements if it was one spell, one specific enhancement? In other words, if you had to choose, say, Explosion (+50%) and only on a specific spell?

[Blind Mapmaker]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

That said, what would be a fair cost for the Artillery Mage enhancements if it was one spell, one specific enhancement? In other words, if you had to choose, say, Explosion (+50%) and only on a specific spell?

Without any of the extra costs/skill penalties involved in Adjustable Spell: Enhanced Spell, I would set the cost at 1 point/+10%. That way the regular Explosive version is still cheaper to learn, but uses up more energy. That won't work for any spell/enhancement combination, but it's probably not over-powered. Heck, 1 point/+20% might still be fair in some campaigns.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Kromm

However, a group of people who want constant bolt-chucking wouldn't like that. For them, I'd recommend the other solution offered here, or just using Magical Bolt from Dungeon Fantasy 11. If Magical Bolt seems too weak, change damage from nd(∞) to 2.5nd; it'll cost the same. If the GM doesn't mind a steady stream of zero-FP-cost 4d bolts that can't miss the target, then that's a fair use of 40 points.

My assumption would be that many Wizard players would want a bit of both worlds:

1. The ability to launch powerful damage-causing spells, single-target and area-of-effect, for use in climax battles, but it's okay if these are severely limited (costing FP, or subject to something similar to Limited Use x/Day). The Costs FP Limitation is far from ideal, for this, however, because you don't actually get much of a discount for it, and Limited Use as written is completely ridiculous.

2. The ability to contribute something magical during run-of-the-mill combat encounters. This has to be sustainable throughout an entire dungeoncrawl, so having to pay FP is bad, except if some mechanic can be devised in which the first 3 or 4 uses per fight cost zerp FP and subsequent uses have a low but non-zero FP cost, e.g. by having a very specialized ER that recharges so quickly that it's essentially always full again every time a new fight starts (so we're talking a few minutes).

Magical Bolt looks fairly good, but its ability to automagically hit increases it CP cost, and I imagine that many DF players would prefer a cheaper version (more damage-per-CP) even if they have to roll to hit.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Ultimately, the GM must solve the problem that his group actually has.

For instance, I've been GMing GURPS since 1986, and in those 27 years, I've run mostly fantasy (three long-running fantasy campaigns account for 17 years of that time). I've had the player of a wizard PC complain just once that magic was too slow, she felt left out, she had nothing to do on her turn, etc. Over the same time period, I've had all but one player of a wizard complain about being unable to blast the entire enemy force with a big, old-school spell like AD&D's Meteor Swarm. This is probably a direct result of gaming with people born in the late 1960s who started gaming in the 1970s . . . they expect wizards to do one big thing, not the constant bolt-chucking of computer-game magic-users. For my players, then, my proposed advantage would be ideal.

I'd love to see what sort of solutions you'd come up with for mages in a Ultra-tech world where distance isn't really a factor and it's the mages who suffer when things like 80DR armors and stuff come into play. That 1 FP = 1d damage becomes hell on a mage when someone else can shoot a gun.

[William]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I'd love to see what sort of solutions you'd come up with for mages in a Ultra-tech world where distance isn't really a factor and it's the mages who suffer when things like 80DR armors and stuff come into play. That 1 FP = 1d damage becomes hell on a mage when someone else can shoot a gun.

Draw Power. Provide them with ultra-tech fuel sources, or magitech spell batteries.

However, at that tech level more battle mages are probably doing something along the lines of illusions, mind control, or tech control for opponents' equipment, not hurling damage spells.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by William

Draw Power. Provide them with ultra-tech fuel sources, or magitech spell batteries.

However, at that tech level more battle mages are probably doing something along the lines of illusions, mind control, or tech control for opponents' equipment, not hurling damage spells.

. . . and probably use guns themselves. If everyone is firing x-ray lasers and you want to compete by shooting fireballs, you would need to up fireballs to a ridiculous extreme to keep up. A GM could do that, but equally could just say, "it's 1d for 1 FP if you do it yourself, but you can use an x-ray laser like everyone else."

At an ultra-tech level of play, where ST plays no role in determine how much a given ranged weapon does for damage, it's going to be hard to compete with personally-generated attack spells. Save them and do other things, IMO, and stop worrying about killing people with your magical powers when you've got a more serious weapon on your hip.

[Dammann]

Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto

.At an ultra-tech level of play, where ST plays no role in determine how much a given ranged weapon does for damage, it's going to be hard to compete with personally-generated attack spells. Save them and do other things, IMO, and stop worrying about killing people with your magical powers when you've got a more serious weapon on your hip.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Dammann

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

Even those wizards supplemented their awesome powers with X-Wings and light sabers.

Just sayin'.