[DF] Mystic Archer Powerups

[Onkl]

Hi guys

One of my players wants to play a Mythic Archer. Since I wasn't able to find any specific powerups geared toward the Mythic Archer, this player argued that he should be allowed to take the Scout Powerups from DF11.

I tend to disagree, as I think that would infringe on the niche of the Scout too much. Also, the Mythic Archer has other means to achieve what the Scout does with the powerups.

What do you think? Does the Outdoorsman talent and the associated skills make the Scout unique enough for the Mystic Archer to be allowed to partake in the Scout powerups?

Cheers

Onkl

[Nereidalbel]

Seems a bit iffy. All a Mystic Archer really needs is a Cornucopia, and they suddenly have all types of magic arrows/crossbow bolts. They can even make their armor ridiculously strong against other archers (up to 4x DR)!

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by Onkl

What do you think? Does the Outdoorsman talent and the associated skills make the Scout unique enough for the Mystic Archer to be allowed to partake in the Scout powerups?

In my opinion, niche protection is only important in the context of a single party ... there are so many templates and power-ups available, that it's pretty rare IME for two PCs to seriously step on each others' toes in a given adventuring party. And if they do, it's because they chose similar templates during character creation, so it was entirely avoidable at that time... they have no one to blame but themselves if they trip over each other in play.

If it looks like one player is going to make a Scout and another wants a Mystic Archer (or Swashbuckler & Mystic Swordsman, or blaster-caster Wizard & Elementalist, etc), I try to make it clear that the players are likely to have overlapping abilities, and may end up competing for the spotlight. If no one in the party is playing a Scout, it doesn't seem problematic to let the Mystic Archer fill that niche ... likewise, I'd be very likely to allow a Scout to take Imbue + Magery and learn bow-related Imbuements as power-ups, as long as the party didn't already have a Mystic Archer.

On the whole, provided that there wasn't already a Scout in the party, I'd probably let a Mystic Archer take the Scout power-ups that relate directly to archery -- Enhanced Tracking (Multiple Lock-Ons), Extra Attack (probably with Multi-Strike, and possibly One Skill Only: Bow), Telescopic Vision, Zen Archery, Bow Fencer, Double-Shot, Quick-Shot, and Strongbow. Granted, the Mystic Archer can accomplish many of these same feats with Imbuements (often better and cheaper, since he's already made the initial investment of buying Imbue and Magery), but if he wants to be able to do them without using magic (in a no-mana zone, when low on FP, etc), I say Why Not?

[mlangsdorf]

Antoni has written power-ups for a Mystic Knight - see Pyramid 3.60 "Mystic Power-Ups." So there's that.

As far as the Scout power-ups go, I probably wouldn't let a Mystic Archer take the extra Basic Move, and a Mystic Archer generally doesn't qualify for Bow Fencer, Double-Shot, Quick-Shot, or Strongbow. So unless you're already letting him take Heroic Archer, it doesn't seem like too much of a niche invasion to give him access to Enhanced Tracking and Telescopic Vision (along with a bunch of stuff he'd have access to anyway, like Extra Attack or Extraordinary Luck).

If you are letting the Mystic Archer take Heroic Archer, I can't see any reason to let him take the various Scout techniques/perks that require it. You're already invading the Scout's niche as the fast-moving ranged attacker with Heroic Archer.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Antoni has written power-ups for a Mystic Knight - see Pyramid 3.60 "Mystic Power-Ups." So there's that.

As far as the Scout power-ups go, I probably wouldn't let a Mystic Archer take the extra Basic Move, and a Mystic Archer generally doesn't qualify for Bow Fencer, Double-Shot, Quick-Shot, or Strongbow. So unless you're already letting him take Heroic Archer, it doesn't seem like too much of a niche invasion to give him access to Enhanced Tracking and Telescopic Vision (along with a bunch of stuff he'd have access to anyway, like Extra Attack or Extraordinary Luck)..

I could see the Strongbow Perk being valid. Heroic Archer should probably require a Lens to qualify, though.

[PseudoFenton]

As far as I recall, the Mystic Archer is a template applied the basic Scout template to bias the powers of the Mystic Knight heavily towards ranged weaponry (namely the bow). I therefore think its appropriate to let them have the better foundation towards bows/ranged combat, but otherwise let them advance as a Mystic Knight for all other purposes - including access to their power-ups and by not allowing access to any other professions power up.

A Mystic Knight can already be tailored towards ranged combat, but using the Mystic Archer method just lets you do it quicker and easier - it doesn't give you a free pass to do anything else similar. If you want to have Scout power-ups and abilities, but also want to use Imbuements - then start as a Scout, and lens into Mystic Knight afterwards.

As others have said, a 'Mystic Archer' has access to magical solutions to many of the problems you encounter as an archer, whilst the Scout has mundane skills to do the same sorts of things. As such they have different strengths and weaknesses, and feel different too.

If you let someone who isn't multi-classing as the perfect hybrid between these two arts just pick and choose as they see fit, then you're allowing them to shore up those potential weaknesses for free - whilst granting them extra strength too. It's not really fair, a barbarian doesn't get access to Knight power-ups simply because they choose to wear heavy armour and have a flare for leadership, after all.

[CousinX]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

As far as the Scout power-ups go, I probably wouldn't let a Mystic Archer take the extra Basic Move, and a Mystic Archer generally doesn't qualify for Bow Fencer, Double-Shot, Quick-Shot, or Strongbow. So unless you're already letting him take Heroic Archer, it doesn't seem like too much of a niche invasion to give him access to Enhanced Tracking and Telescopic Vision (along with a bunch of stuff he'd have access to anyway, like Extra Attack or Extraordinary Luck).

If you are letting the Mystic Archer take Heroic Archer, I can't see any reason to let him take the various Scout techniques/perks that require it. You're already invading the Scout's niche as the fast-moving ranged attacker with Heroic Archer.

If we're talking about the Mystic Archer from Pyramid 3/36, it has Heroic Archery by default, so it technically qualifies for those power-ups. It's a lens for Scout, not for Mystic Knight.

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

If you let someone who isn't multi-classing as the perfect hybrid between these two arts just pick and choose as they see fit, then you're allowing them to shore up those potential weaknesses for free - whilst granting them extra strength too. It's not really fair, a barbarian doesn't get access to Knight power-ups simply because they choose to wear heavy armour and have a flare for leadership, after all.

That's exactly what I think. I wouldn't allow a Mystic Swashbuckler to get "Botte Segrette" and in the case of the Mystic Template that gets upgrades (as mentioned by mlangsdorf), they are different from the Knight template ones.

Originally Posted by CousinX

If we're talking about the Mystic Archer from Pyramid 3/36, it has Heroic Archery by default, so it technically qualifies for those power-ups. It's a lens for Scout, not for Mystic Knight.

That's the Lens I am talking about. What you say makes sense, but niche protection is important. If you can take the upgrades from the Scout powerups, the Scout template as is gets driven into the outdoor archer niche, as a Mystic Archer would "normally" in the dungeon be very much more desirable. So why would anyone play a Scout - if the campaign isn't set in the wilderness?

Cheers

[Kuroshima]

Personally, I find that the mystic archer should take mystic knight power-ups. When I wrote them, I was being careful to make sure that they were suitable for all imbuement users. In fact, the elemental souls are extra nasty for bow/multishot users, as they often hit multiple times, and ST is less useful for them as they deal thrust damage.

In my game, I have a scout/mystic knight/wizard (over 750 points right now), and trust me, Imbuements complement bow users very well.

[sir_pudding]

A Scout/Mystic Knight should be able to take both Scout and Mystic Knight Power-ups.