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Old 12-27-2009, 03:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
(...) Maybe they aren't clerics, they are something else? If anyone has any better understanding of the religion and such please help me create a Buddhist cleric, thanks.
True, they weren't clerics from a strict point of view. Clerics are linked to religions, but Buddhism is/was instead primordially an upaya, a mean to Enlightenment.

Spells are usually refered as siddhis, yogic perfections, or "powers". However there were, sometimes, magic involved (and tomes). But focusing on magic was usually seen as a sign of weak understanding or worse.

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IIRC claiming to have supernatural powers is one of the five offences that can get you thrown out of the Sangha (Buddhist monkhood).
A Buddhist monk makes little sense in a Dungeon Fantasy context. Unless you take all the symbols for translating them into literal earthly entities and phenomena.

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Legendary buddhist priests defeated entire pantheons of gods and converted them - many of the 'good' gods just converted, but not all of them went peacefully A good, cinematic tact is that the Buddhist cleric is on the side of mortals, and against all immortals, be they angels or demons. This makes the Buddhist cleric a nice counterpoint to both Druids and holy/unholy clerics
However b-dog you can draw inspiration from some kind of avâtara like Padma-Shambhava, who slayed hundreds of demons and wrote books about things like that. However that is very far from the usual Buddhist monk.

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Let their powers be tied to various hand gestures (the buddhist cleric points to the ground with his index finger and says "the earth is my witness" which destroys all illusions).
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Yep, it's saved me from many an Elder God experience (...) I use that mudra to stop things from getting out of hand weird. Ritual for its own sake is pointless, but some ritual help focus the mind, like tea ceremony.
Using mantras, mudras, yantras, etc... without them being handled personally to you by a true guru is pointless. It results in mere psychological effects, at most (I'm not doubting of that tantric is telling here, however, only saying that's a psychological effect and that isn't the intended purpose of such things). Additionally, these things were handled in their proper contexts (Buddhist, in this case, and to Buddhists), and not outside of them.

Additionally, it's true from the point of view of metaphysics -as the Buddhist-, an "Elder God" isn't but a vulgar demon, or the own ego, or both . . .

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Anyway, I thought it was considered a long-awaited realization that all rituals are focusing aids to be discarded later (at best) or a waste (at worst). Of course, I'm no big expert.
Concerning rituals being pointless . . . that is a gross simplification, and the part of truth in such claimings is only true from the higher doctrinal point of view, understood but very few individuals. There were some interesting paradoxes in masters pointing to the vanity of rituals while at the same time they were practicing them. Wisdom isn't straightforward like mass culture.

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Honestly, it depends on your sect. Tibetans love rituals, Zen has fewer. They all know the rituals lack inherent meaning, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful.
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Thus as the Buddha came to understand that his teachings would become a true religion and not just a philosophy
Glad to see some people acknowledge eastern teachings like Buddhism weren't comparable to philosophies -misconception shared by western academicians, scholars and OFC philosophers.

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Interesting. Then planting the British, Indian, and Nepali flags on top of the highest mountain in the world reminds that all glory is fleeting?
That sort of behaviour pertains to another point of view, lesser and more tied to the phenomenic experience. The ego rules there. Buddhism doesn't care properly of such points of view because its perspective is more focused and at the same time more limited than the one of the Hinduism, the root of Buddhism and from which it was rejected. Upayas are, by nature, limited and focused to attaining the designed goals and nothing more. It's true Buddhism was expanded and enriched later (Tibet, China, Japan . . .) but that's another story.

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No, I was assuming that you would think that a temporary glory can be used to remind one of the lack of permanent glory from earthly achievement.
Certainly you can to interpret such things in that way, but they weren't made for helping to remind people the wordly vanity, rather at the contrary.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:36 PM   #32
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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handled personally to you by a true guru
Why would that be of any importance at all? That sounds almost like an appeal to authority. (Again, I'm no expert on the issue, but your words run counter to my impressions of Buddhism's position on . . . well, persons.)
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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A Buddhist monk makes little sense in a Dungeon Fantasy context. Unless you take all the symbols for translating them into literal earthly entities and phenomena.
Yeah, well DF is a game. An accurate representation of how, say, Hermetic magicians operate would only be good for inspiration.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:49 PM   #34
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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Using mantras, mudras, yantras, etc... without them being handled personally to you by a true guru is pointless. It results in mere psychological effects, at most (I'm not doubting of that tantric is telling here, however, only saying that's a psychological effect and that isn't the intended purpose of such things). Additionally, these things were handled in their proper contexts (Buddhist, in this case, and to Buddhists), and not outside of them.
Now this, I have to object to. Even in a logical sense - where did the guru get them? There are also two types of buddhas that don't follow the traditional path, both of them come to enlightenment on their own, and one of them doesn't teach at all. Also, what do you mean by 'mere psychological effects'?

In any case, the point here is that the OP wants a cleric/monk combo with a buddhist feel. I'm for giving him what he wants. There is no 'real' Buddhism, there is no 'real' Dungeon Fantasy, there is no one to offend. Calling the class "non-Buddhist tantric guru" to avoid offending or misrepresenting True Buddhism is silly. In DF, Jesus was not a simple man with some good ideas - he was a spiritual powerhouse who could kick some ass. Why should the monotheists have all the fun? I want a monk who can stare holes in the walls and reveal a succubus as a withered hag. DF is about having fun. Allow me to repeat myself:

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This is DF Buddhism, meaning that the Greater Vehicle needs to have room to carry all the loot.

Last edited by tantric; 12-27-2009 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 12-27-2009, 04:57 PM   #35
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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Why would that be of any importance at all? That sounds almost like an appeal to authority. (Again, I'm no expert on the issue, but your words run counter to my impressions of Buddhism's position on . . . well, persons.)
Spirituality is very related to authority. Buddhism is no exception here. The practical importance of that is hard to explain and it's part of the technical aspects of spirituality; the fact is the mentioned practices lack of efficacy if they aren't handled down by a true master.

Now, we're talking about things in which a supernatural element is involved. The disciple needs to be empowered by his master, and the disciple needs empowered means (Saktopaya). OFC for believers in materialism that makes no sense.

Also, people used to despise all kind of authority rages hearing things like these, and they proceed to distort ancient teachings for suiting them to their own tastes. In that way, people makes falsifications and are willing to be deceived by them, too.
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Old 12-27-2009, 05:44 PM   #36
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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Yeah, well DF is a game. An accurate representation of how, say, Hermetic magicians operate would only be good for inspiration.
I agree. It's a game like any other RPG.

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Now this, I have to object to. Even in a logical sense - where did the guru get them? There are also two types of buddhas that don't follow the traditional path, both of them come to enlightenment on their own, and one of them doesn't teach at all. Also, what do you mean by 'mere psychological effects'?
In a logical sense, the guru get the supernatural element through . . . his own guru. And this earlier guru? From the avâtara: the founder of an upaya borns with the power of starting such line of transmission. Gautama, for instance, regarding Buddhism. Muhammad, for instance, regarding Sufism. Etc.

There were no real buddhas skipping the real lines of transmission. However these things weren't mentioned openly, as many others.

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Originally Posted by tantric View Post
In any case, the point here is that the OP wants a cleric/monk combo with a buddhist feel. I'm for giving him what he wants.
That's why I mentioned Padma-Shambhava: the perfect Buddhist yogi (cleric?) and Holy Warrior.

You made your contributions here, and they are valuable. I'm making my own. What's the problem?

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Originally Posted by tantric View Post
There is no 'real' Buddhism, there is no 'real' Dungeon Fantasy, there is no one to offend. Calling the class "non-Buddhist tantric guru" to avoid offending or misrepresenting True Buddhism is silly. In DF, Jesus was not a simple man with some good ideas - he was a spiritual powerhouse who could kick some ass. Why should the monotheists have all the fun?
There is no "real Buddhism"? Hm, I also doubt of the current reality of Buddhism, but it existed in the past.

Regarding Jesus . . . I also think a christian monk isn't well suited for Dungeon Fantasy, except as a healer. Jesus "teachings" and ways had very little to do with the Dungeon Fantasy themes. Maybe the Old Testament is better . . . As you can see I'm not "favoring" Christians here.

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Calling the class "non-Buddhist tantric guru" to avoid offending or misrepresenting True Buddhism is silly.
"DF is about having fun", but however you guys are speaking of real life things around here. Trying to clear misconceptions isn't silly.

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Originally Posted by tantric View Post
I want a monk who can stare holes in the walls and reveal a succubus as a withered hag. DF is about having fun. Allow me to repeat myself:
OK, go with your DF Buddhist Cleric/Holy Warrior . . . B-dog was asking for some ideas regarding that, and he has, I believe, some useful and interesting answers.
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:06 PM   #37
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

Thanks for the help. I want to say that I am not looking for any true buddhism just sort of the fluff and kewl stuff that goes with it. I also would like to say that a Christian cleric would be fine for a DF PC too because they would be like the Hollywood vampire slayer cleric and would fit fine in a DF game IMO.
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:12 AM   #38
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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In a logical sense, the guru get the supernatural element through . . . his own guru. And this earlier guru? From the avâtara: the founder of an upaya borns with the power of starting such line of transmission. Gautama, for instance, regarding Buddhism. Muhammad, for instance, regarding Sufism. Etc.

There were no real buddhas skipping the real lines of transmission. However these things weren't mentioned openly, as many others.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'real' here. Is there an official stamp of approval? No. Is the Gautama Buddha the only source of real wisdom? He said rather specifically that he was not, but you can believe as you choose, and it is certainly possible that he is the only source for you, as he is for me. Are you familiar with this koan: What do you do if you see the Buddha walking down the road? Hit him with a stick. The Gautama Buddha is not irrelevant to the path towards enlightenment, but he does sometimes get in the way. The dharma itself is all the information we need to get to Nirvana, yet we are still grateful to the Buddha and the sangha for preserving that information.


Quote:
You made your contributions here, and they are valuable. I'm making my own. What's the problem?
NP. I like talking about Buddhism. Give me half a chance and I'll babble for an hour. Sometimes it is hard to tell if a person is being argumentative or just eager to debate, especially on the internet. I'm just talking.


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There is no "real Buddhism"? Hm, I also doubt of the current reality of Buddhism, but it existed in the past.
This is not my point of view. I see it that rigid adherence to anything is dogmatic. When a person reaches a state of satori, then we look back on his life and what lead him there. That is the 'real' Buddhism. Whatever works.

My suggestion, my nefarious plan, as a Buddhist, is to employ skillful means to teach about the dharma while having fun. To this end, I suggest the yamabushi template in GURPS Japan. It needs Discipline of Faith to be sohei. If the OP is interested, we can work out some lenses.

Last edited by tantric; 12-28-2009 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:28 AM   #39
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

I don't see the point of ascribing some mystical specialness to the things 'handed down' from some guru. That sound dangerously close to treating guru as some sort of low-level deity.
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Old 12-28-2009, 11:35 AM   #40
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Default Re: [DF] Help with creating a Buddhist cleric and holy warrior

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I don't see the point of ascribing some mystical specialness to the things 'handed down' from some guru. That sound dangerously close to treating guru as some sort of low-level deity.
As I understand, this is supposed to be a fantasy. Low-level deities are perfectly at home in the context.
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