GURPS Star Trek - Canon Vulcans

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well I think it's worth noting that:
1) The fight resolves the Vulcan's tension. Spock didn't have any need to boink T'Pring after he "killed" Kirk.
2) Fight to the death isn't entirely necessary. Even ignoring the trick with Amok Time, in Blood Fever, the matter is settled when Torres KOs Vorik (one would also assume that Vorik probably wouldn't kill Torres either.)


I kinda assume that Pon Farr is a consequence of Surakism. You bottle your emotions up for seven years, and then it comes out in a ritualistic display of sex or violence (barring intensive meditation).

Maybe that could happen but it would strain my disbelief. The only humans who go through anything like that do so in limited ways. And celibacy does not really make people act like that. I find it easier to believe that Vulcans just have a different biological cycle but one fairly plausible, and it wasn't mentioned about Romulans because it we only knew about them a short time and that never became important to the plot (according to Balance of Terror contact with the Federation had been sharply limited before).

It does raise the point though that Starfleet must have an uncommon problem with logistics with all those alien races. It reminds me of the John Company which could not give tobacco to Sikhs, or drink to Muslims and had to change the drill to avoid biting cartridges with proscribed grease. Maybe that's why there are so many humans aboard who speak English...

[TGLS]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Maybe that could happen but it would strain my disbelief. The only humans who go through anything like that do so in limited ways. And celibacy does not really make people act like that.

Well I was more arguing that it was a consequence of emotional suppression not suppression of sex. Word of go from DC Fontana and the recent Spock Amok indicates that Vulcans have sex at times that aren't Pon Farr anyway.

I think that it really says something that the Vulcan always seem to go way too far emotionally when X happens and they lose control of their emotions. Romulans on the other hand seem to remain fairly balanced by comparison, so I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by TGLS

Well I was more arguing that it was a consequence of emotional suppression not suppression of sex. Word of go from DC Fontana and the recent Spock Amok indicates that Vulcans have sex at times that aren't Pon Farr anyway.

I think that it really says something that the Vulcan always seem to go way too far emotionally when X happens and they lose control of their emotions. Romulans on the other hand seem to remain fairly balanced by comparison, so I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

Well yes, but there are only partial examples of that among humans of which ritual celibacy is one. And yes Vulcans do copulate at other times. However a better comparison to Pon Farr is puberty though Spock is obviously an adult. Indeed it would work well for this if most Vulcan's Pon Farr coincided with their Rite of Passage, and maybe Spock had a delay for some reason. Actually if I remember it was more like he was mind linked by negotiation and it was in effect a mental time bomb which would be a drastic custom except under the assumption that most Vulcans don't spend so much time offworld.

[jason taylor]

Here's another idea. What if Vulcans decided to partially delay the psychological effects of puberty by applied psionics so that it does not kick in until the subject is capable of having dependents? Although that does not explain a lot of the ceremony which is rather like a prehistoric throwback. Or maybe the original Pon Farr WAS at a younger age.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Inky

Possibly one reason is that it doesn't allow for their usual level of mental discipline - you get whatever thoughts and emotions the other being has got, unedited, and Vulcans seem to think that that's terribly dangerous. (Maybe the Meditation mitigator, if using that, shouldn't apply to reactions to things picked up during a mind meld?)

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

There's actually good precedent in canon for this idea. In Voyager, Tuvok repeatedly Mind Melds with the Betazoid murderer, Lon Suder. The deep, repeated contact with such a disturbed person briefly messes with Tuvok's mind, giving him angry, murderous impulses which he struggles to contain. (Nobody does slow-burn, scary Vulcan like Tim Russ playing Tuvok.)

I just meant during the mind meld - they have to experience the other person's unmitigated emotions, especially if the other person isn't a Vulcan, and Vulcans are brought up to be scared of emotions - but actually, effects that last for some time after that is an interesting idea too! (Not sure how you'd game that, maybe a failed roll by a certain amount means you temporarily gain one of the other person's mental disads). Not sure I knew about that Voyager episode!

Originally Posted by Inky

The ceremonies in "Amok Time", on the other hand... that really doesn't seem to have much to do with logic. It seems to be implying that this is how they've handled pon farr since before Surak's time and possibly since the Stone Age because despite all the logic and mental discipline stuff they haven't been able to come up with a better idea - and that makes the whole thing all the more terrifying. No wonder Spock went to such lengths to try to avoid telling the humans about that.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Pon Farr would be scary for any species, "you have two weeks to mate or else you die" is a vicious biological imperative.

For Vulcans, it typically blows away all their emotional control which is humiliating as well as being scary, especially in a culture where all but the most subtle emotional displays are considered to be in bad taste.

Oh, I meant terrifying to watch. The fact that it's the normally smugly hyper-civilised Vulcans who are falling back on these Stone Age ceremonies because in however many centuries they apparently haven't managed to find any other way makes it all the more clear that the characters are up against it.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The rituals around pon farr actually make a lot of sense. A nasty kind of sense, but it's built around a nasty bit of biology.

They apparently arrange marriages way before adulthood, as in Spock and his assigned mate, T'Pring. Probably logically, based on genetics, background, social status, etc. That would make sense, it would help to assure that every Vulcan male had a mate ready when the life-threatening moment approached.

The female can refuse, but since this puts the male's life in danger, there is a high social and legal cost (i.e. chattel status), and the other male she wants has to risk his life to achieve the goal, both of which would discourage doing so 'casually'. It would probably also seem appropriate, from a Vulcan POV, that the challenger must risk his own life, since he's putting the challenged's life at risk.

(The duel to the death, on those occasions when it does happen, would also apply a selective pressure, which probably appeals to Vulcan logic.)

I would imagine, given the rest of what we see of Vulcan society, though I have no data to confirm it, that there are other ways to challenge the arranged marriage, with less extreme consequences, but that they would have to be invoked well before the big event to allow time for other arrangements to be made. If you wait to the last minute the way T'Pring did, then you have to pay the price. After all, it's literally a matter of life and death.

As I said, it all makes a nasty kind of sense.

And of course, I have absolutely no doubt that Stonn discovered the truth of Spock's observation that "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

Yeah, I'm guessing that usually if a marriage is going to be called off it's done between times, with the duel being an emergency measure. The episode seems to be implying that it happened that time due to Spock's hybrid biology - Spock had concluded that at his age if it hadn't happened by then, it wasn't going to (and therefore, presumably, that there was no risk involved in him signing up for a long space voyage). He was very lucky that they were within a few days' travel of Vulcan when he turned out to be dead wrong.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Inky

Yeah, I'm guessing that usually if a marriage is going to be called off it's done between times, with the duel being an emergency measure.

This appears to be the norm. Much of T'Pol's story arc in Enterprise Seasons 2-3 involves her ambivalence towards her forthcoming arranged marriage. At one point, she threatens to invoke the Kal-if-Fee, but she's clearly bluffing.

Spoiler:  

Ultimately, she gets married in Season 4, "for reasons" but gets amicably divorced soon afterwards. No Lirpa duels required, at least concerning the marriage, although they do happen.

Originally Posted by Inky

The episode seems to be implying that it happened that time due to Spock's hybrid biology - Spock had concluded that at his age if it hadn't happened by then, it wasn't going to (and therefore, presumably, that there was no risk involved in him signing up for a long space voyage). He was very lucky that they were within a few days' travel of Vulcan when he turned out to be dead wrong.

IIRC, P'pring's main objection was that Spock was starting to get famous and she didn't want to be married to a legend-in-the-making.

As to the biology of it all, in ST3: The Search for Spock, Spock's "clone" goes through Pon Farr as it enters puberty. Luckily for teen-aged Spock 2, there just happens to be a hot Vulcan babe handy to deal with that problem. (You can sort of see the gears turning in Saavik's mind as it happens, "It's the logical thing to do . . .")

My headcanon is that there are either Pon Farr suppressing treatments which can be administered if things get really bad, or, more traditionally, a cult of ancient temple prostitutes turned sex therapists.

Given that Kolinahr masters are able to suppress Pon Farr voluntarily, the former option seems likely. The only reason that suppression treatments aren't used on a regular basis is because the treatment as bad or worse than the problem it solves.

The latter option might be the basis behind the occasional salacious rumors regarding Vulcan female sexuality.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

The rituals around pon farr actually make a lot of sense. A nasty kind of sense, but it's built around a nasty bit of biology.

They apparently arrange marriages way before adulthood, as in Spock and his assigned mate, T'Pring. Probably logically, based on genetics, background, social status, etc. That would make sense, it would help to assure that every Vulcan male had a mate ready when the life-threatening moment approached.

The female can refuse, but since this puts the male's life in danger, there is a high social and legal cost (i.e. chattel status), and the other male she wants has to risk his life to achieve the goal, both of which would discourage doing so 'casually'. It would probably also seem appropriate, from a Vulcan POV, that the challenger must risk his own life, since he's putting the challenged's life at risk.

(The duel to the death, on those occasions when it does happen, would also apply a selective pressure, which probably appeals to Vulcan logic.)

I would imagine, given the rest of what we see of Vulcan society, though I have no data to confirm it, that there are other ways to challenge the arranged marriage, with less extreme consequences, but that they would have to be invoked well before the big event to allow time for other arrangements to be made. If you wait to the last minute the way T'Pring did, then you have to pay the price. After all, it's literally a matter of life and death.

As I said, it all makes a nasty kind of sense.

And of course, I have absolutely no doubt that Stonn discovered the truth of Spock's observation that "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."

It is the same logic that always motivates the institution of dueling: it regulates violence, especially in those to powerful to be limited by state force. Making it to the death in this case prevents problems like clandestine adultery with or vindictiveness by the loser. What was not mentioned but which must have been a part of it at least in the past was an oath by the witnesses to renounce retaliation and possibly to protect the winner from further disputants. Because to fulfill it's logical purpose a duel has to end the quarrel.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

My headcanon is that there are either Pon Farr suppressing treatments which can be administered if things get really bad, or, more traditionally, a cult of ancient temple prostitutes turned sex therapists.

Would the latter even work? The only pon farr episode I've seen was the one in Voyager ("Blood Fever"), and in that there seemed to be a strong degree of fixation involved. Torik doesn't just want to have sex with someone - he wants to marry B'Elanna Torres, and only B'Elanna Torres. When the Doctor prescribes him some "recreational time" on holodeck, it either doesn't help and he acts like it does in hopes of getting access to Torres again, or he actually fakes having gone through with it for the same purpose. And when Torres suffers from the same symptoms (due to an attempted forced-mind-meld by Torik), she similarly fixates on Tom Paris. The arranged marriage policy may well have also served to give the Vulcan a readily-available target for fixation - a Vulcan without such (because no such arrangement was made, or it was physically impossible to meet with the arranged person) may have instead targeted whoever he happened to have a crush on at the time (presumably that's what happened with Torik)... and simply boinking a temple prostitute probably wouldn't have helped.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Would the latter even work? The only pon farr episode I've seen was the one in Voyager ("Blood Fever"), and in that there seemed to be a strong degree of fixation involved. Torik doesn't just want to have sex with someone - he wants to marry B'Elanna Torres, and only B'Elanna Torres. When the Doctor prescribes him some "recreational time" on holodeck, it either doesn't help and he acts like it does in hopes of getting access to Torres again, or he actually fakes having gone through with it for the same purpose. And when Torres suffers from the same symptoms (due to an attempted forced-mind-meld by Torik), she similarly fixates on Tom Paris. The arranged marriage policy may well have also served to give the Vulcan a readily-available target for fixation - a Vulcan without such (because no such arrangement was made, or it was physically impossible to meet with the arranged person) may have instead targeted whoever he happened to have a crush on at the time (presumably that's what happened with Torik)... and simply boinking a temple prostitute probably wouldn't have helped.

Besides wouldn't they want to harness the social and political advantages of family alliances? Otherwise they would not make arranged matches. Given that they CAN keep wilful young males from messing up the contract why would they want to ruin it?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Besides wouldn't they want to harness the social and political advantages of family alliances? Otherwise they would not make arranged matches. Given that they CAN keep wilful young males from messing up the contract why would they want to ruin it?

That sort of political scheming is generally the domain of the upper classes, and perhaps the middle classes. For low-class Vulcans who may well have difficulty securing an arranged marriage, you certainly don't want them disrupting society by challenging their betters for mating rights, and a free-for-all amongst themselves could be similarly problematic, so having temple prostitutes available for such could be a good idea. There can also be issues if the arranged mate of a high-class Vulcan becomes unavailable a short while before their partner enters pon farr - due to being injured, missing, or dead - leaving no time to arrange a replacement marriage... but a temple prostitute could serve to relieve such a person, leaving them the seven years before their next pon farr to make the necessary arrangements.

Of course, that's if temple prostitutes would work to alleviate the symptoms of pon farr, and I'm unconvinced they would. But then, it is apparently possible to deal with it via meditation. Perhaps a combined approach - attention from a temple prostitute helping with the symptoms, and meditation to pull oneself through the rest of it - might work.