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Old 06-11-2022, 02:48 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

M126's "Lend Spell" only works on those which are "maintainable" which basically rules out Missile/Melee since they don't have a duration or a 'to maintain' cost.

I thought of one possible workaround though, and that's using M128's Hang Spell on a missile spell because Hang Spell is maintainble, so if you did "Hang Fireball" you might be able to "Lend Hung Fireball" to your ally?

Hang Spell requires Delay which requires Magery 3 though, so I think you could only lend hung missile spells to allies who had magery 3 or more?

Same with Reflex since that also has Delay as prereq.

Makes me wonder if there are any spells that could temporarily bestow magery for allies for a short period of time so they could accept a hung missile.

Presumably if your Magery dropped below 3 while maintaining a spell that has Magery 3 as a prereq you would no longer be able to maintain it. I'm not sure if that means the spell would immediately end, or if it would last whatever duration you'd paid for and then you just couldn't pay the maintenance cost to get a renewed duration?

That kinda thing would matter a lot for those w/ switchable magery since the effect of switching off your magery on spell durations/maintainability would need to be known
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Old 06-11-2022, 03:52 PM   #2
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
M126's "Lend Spell" only works on those which are "maintainable" which basically rules out Missile/Melee since they don't have a duration or a 'to maintain' cost.

I thought of one possible workaround though, and that's using M128's Hang Spell on a missile spell because Hang Spell is maintainable, so if you did "Hang Fireball" you might be able to "Lend Hung Fireball" to your ally?
Hang Spell specifically states in the last sentence in black text that hung spells cannot be stolen or lent because they haven't yet been cast.

Quote:
Same with Reflex since that also has Delay as prereq.
Although it doesn't expressly state that you can't lend a Reflex Spell, Reflex does use the same wording regarding the Reflexed spell not yet being cast, so that implies that it can't be lent because it hasn't yet been cast, just as is the case for a Hung Spell.
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Old 06-11-2022, 09:23 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Hang Spell specifically states in the last sentence in black text that hung spells cannot be stolen or lent because they haven't yet been cast.
Yeah you're not lending the hung spell, you're lending Hang Spell which then allows you to cast that spell.

If for example I want to target a mage who has Hang Spell > Armor cast, I can't cast Steal Spell to target Armor itself to directly get DR (resisted by their skill in Armor) but instead target Hang Spell (resisted by their skill in Hang Spell) to steal that, which if successful gives me the option to Concentrate 1 second to then get Armor.

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Although it doesn't expressly state that you can't lend a Reflex Spell, Reflex does use the same wording regarding the Reflexed spell not yet being cast, so that implies that it can't be lent because it hasn't yet been cast, just as is the case for a Hung Spell.
Correct, but I'm talking about "Lend Reflex" and there's nothing AFAIK preventing the lending or stealing of Reflex or Hang Spell since those are already cast.
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Old 06-12-2022, 05:38 AM   #4
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Yeah you're not lending the hung spell, you're lending Hang Spell which then allows you to cast that spell.

If for example I want to target a mage who has Hang Spell > Armor cast, I can't cast Steal Spell to target Armor itself to directly get DR (resisted by their skill in Armor) but instead target Hang Spell (resisted by their skill in Hang Spell) to steal that, which if successful gives me the option to Concentrate 1 second to then get Armor.


Correct, but I'm talking about "Lend Reflex" and there's nothing AFAIK preventing the lending or stealing of Reflex or Hang Spell since those are already cast.
Possibly Hang Spell could be lent, if the Lend spell was cast followed by Hang Spell and you were then to cast Hang Spell and your own subject spell, but Lending a Hang Spell that already has a subject spell attached to it seems to be prohibited under the restriction that a hung spell can't be lent.

Lend Spell can't affect the subject spell of Hang Spell as that violates Hang Spell's own prohibition on lending hung spells. If you can target the Hang Spell with Lend Spell, then the only manipulations you can make to Hang Spell are those that don't affect the subject spell in any way. As an example, you couldn't decide when a hung fireball is actually cast, rendering Lend Spell's effect on Hang Spell moot as far as manipulating Hang Spell goes.
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Old 06-12-2022, 07:07 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Possibly Hang Spell could be lent, if the Lend spell was cast followed by Hang Spell
Lend Spell is cast after a spell is already active AFAIK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
and you were then to cast Hang Spell and your own subject spell
The cost of Hang Spell (to initiate or maintain) is derived from it's subject spell so I don't really know how hanging an unspecificed Hang Spell is meant to work, if that's what you mean.

Now you have me thinking about stuff like "can I cast Hang Spell on Hang Spell?"

Something like "I cast Hang Spell at 10 energy so when I use a Concentrate I can initiate a hanging of any spell costing 10 energy or less!" ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
but Lending a Hang Spell that already has a subject spell attached to it seems to be prohibited under the restriction that a hung spell can't be lent.
You're not lending that spell though (it hasn't been cast)

Hang Spell is a different spell then the spell it is acting upon.

Basically you can't directly lend a spell you haven't activated yet (and nobody can steal it from you) but there's no prohibition against doing that to Hang Spell itself I can see.

The big difference here is that Steal Spell has to defeat Hang Spell in a quick contest to steal Hang Spell. You can't bypass it to Steal Spell from the hung spell directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Lend Spell can't affect the subject spell of Hang Spell as that violates Hang Spell's own prohibition on lending hung spells.
Hang Spell is not a hung spell, it is the hanging spell which hangs the hung spells.

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
If you can target the Hang Spell with Lend Spell, then the only manipulations you can make to Hang Spell are those that don't affect the subject spell in any way. As an example, you couldn't decide when a hung fireball is actually cast
Agreed, instead what you would be doing is changing the chooser.

Instead of you being the one who chooses to Concentrate to activate your Hung Fireball, by using Lend Spell, you are designating the Lendee as the new chooser who may opt to Concentrate to cast that spell.

You could not, however, just force the fireball to appear in your ally's hand.

M128 discusses the use of Suspend Spell, an interesting question here is whether you would be casting Suspend Spell on Hang Spell or whether you would be casting it on the Hung Spell which Hang Spell is hanging.
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Old 06-12-2022, 08:34 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Lend Spell is cast after a spell is already active AFAIK
Then you can't cast Lend Spell of Hang Spell until after Hang Spell has the subject spell attached to it, since Hang Spell says they have to to be cast immediately and with no delays between the castings.

Quote:
The cost of Hang Spell (to initiate or maintain) is derived from it's subject spell so I don't really know how hanging an unspecificed Hang Spell is meant to work, if that's what you mean.<snip>
What I'm saying is that if you want to say that Hang Spell is the subject of Lend Spell, then all that gets lent is Hang Spell and not any subject spell, in which event you would have to provide the subject spell for Hang Spell yourself, the subject spell of Hang Spell wouldn't come along with it.

Quote:
You're not lending that spell though (it hasn't been cast)

Hang Spell is a different spell then the spell it is acting upon.

Basically you can't directly lend a spell you haven't activated yet (and nobody can steal it from you) but there's no prohibition against doing that to Hang Spell itself I can see.

Hang Spell is not a hung spell, it is the hanging spell which hangs the hung spells.
A spell is hung only when it is the subject of Hang Spell and stops being a hung spell when it is actually cast. For example, Fireball is a hung spell while it is the subject of Hang Spell. It stops being a hung spell as soon as it is cast, becoming a Fireball spell. The hung spell isn't just the subject spell, it's Hang Spell and the subject spell in combination that make a hung spell. Being part and parcel of a hung spell which cannot be lent, neither the subject spell nor Hang Spell itself can be the subject of a Lend Spell.

Quote:
Agreed, instead what you would be doing is changing the chooser.

Instead of you being the one who chooses to Concentrate to activate your Hung Fireball, by using Lend Spell, you are designating the Lendee as the new chooser who may opt to Concentrate to cast that spell.
<snip>
Which is exactly what I meant when I said you can't manipulate the subject spell, you do not get to choose to Concentrate to activate the hung Fireball. If you could choose to Concentrate to activate the hung Fireball then Lend Spell would, in fact, result in your being lent the hung Fireball spell, which as mentioned previously, is prohibited within the terms of Hang Spell.
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Old 06-13-2022, 12:46 AM   #7
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Then you can't cast Lend Spell of Hang Spell until after Hang Spell has the subject spell attached to it, since Hang Spell says they have to to be cast immediately and with no delays between the castings.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
What I'm saying is that if you want to say that Hang Spell is the subject of Lend Spell, then all that gets lent is Hang Spell and not any subject spell, in which event you would have to provide the subject spell for Hang Spell yourself, the subject spell of Hang Spell wouldn't come along with it.
The only time you can anchor a spell to Hang Spell is when you cast it immediately afterward.

By the time you get around to using Lend Spell (or Steal Spell) to target Hang Spell, it's already past the tether point.

When you are the owner of Hang Spell I'm pretty sure you don't get the option to ditch whatever spell is currently hung on it and hang a 2nd alternate spell on it without recasting - you're stuck with whatever spell you 1st hung on it.

- -

A useful comparison to this might be if you tried to cast Steal Spell on something like Spellguard - you would steal the Spellguard but not the spell it was guarding.

What do you think the effect of that would be, like if you would get to specify a new spell for it to guard?

Normally being the owner of a Spellguard doesn't give you the ability to switch it to guard a different spell on the fly though...

It seems like maybe it would continue to guard the spell which it was originally guarding (you could not change that) but you could do things like opt to cancel the Spellguard early before it's duration ended, so that you could attack the spell w/ stuff like Counterspell more easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The hung spell isn't just the subject spell, it's Hang Spell and the subject spell in combination that make a hung spell.
The spell which is actually cast (and which you are paying to maintain) is called Hang Spell.

The term "hung spell" to me refers to the ongoing effect of maintaining Hang Spell, which is to anchor portents of a partially-cast spell that hasn't actually been completely cast.

It is not "activated" to use the adjective M128 uses. The 'activation' causes the spell roll to occur.

Like Spellguard, this is a spell you cast on another spell which is the "subject".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Which is exactly what I meant when I said you can't manipulate the subject spell, you do not get to choose to Concentrate to activate the hung Fireball. If you could choose to Concentrate to activate the hung Fireball then Lend Spell would, in fact, result in your being lent the hung Fireball spell, which as mentioned previously, is prohibited within the terms of Hang Spell.
Lend Spell isn't resulting in the fireball being cast though, but rather the concentrate maneuver.

If you use Lend Spell to take something like Hang Spell, you could hang onto that indefinitely and never activate it, terminate it prematurely, let the duration elapse without maintaining, etc.

Fireball isn't being targeted because it's not actually "on". If Fireball were "on" then you couldn't cast spells at all and you'd have a big ball of fire in your hand.

"A hung spell counts as one spell “on” (p. 10) for casting purposes" seems to me to be referring to "Hang Spell" itself being on, performing it's purpose (hanging onto an unactivated spell after the time/energy were spent)
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Old 06-13-2022, 01:49 AM   #8
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Lending a Fireball to an ally? Maintaining Magery 3 spells w/ Magery 2

I don't think that I can contribute anything further to this as we now seem to be in the position of reiterating arguments already made and answered.
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