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Old 02-08-2018, 01:21 PM   #81
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
I am assuming they must Hold-Fire all weapons to KISS.
In the case of Ogres, I'd allow them to hold individual weapon fire. A bit of a hassle, of course. But remember that a unit won't gratuitously hold fire. If it has a target in its combat phase, it will shoot then. The cost of hold fire is that you convert an attack that would normally happen before the enemy combat phase into an attack that occurs simultaneously in the enemy combat phase.

Quote:
Attacks are simultaneous from attacker and defender, thus the following situations can play out (basically):
OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs and GEVs miss OGRE.
OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs and GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads.
GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads and OGRE misses GEVs.
GEVs X OGRE weapons and or treads and OGRE Xes or Disables GEVs.
Of course there could be partial Xing and missing, but basically these are the situations that will occur with the simultaneous attacking of Hold-Fire.

This is also where the concern of balance issues is.

What about having the rule GEVs can only make their attacks AFTER the OGRE makes it's attacks on them and only if it misses them. (No Disable or X results occur). This takes a lot of the sting out of GEVs being too favored and powerful while still preserving the core concept. They can still attack, but only if they successfully weather the OGREs attacks first.

Optionally, you could keep the original rule of simultaneous attacks with full effect for both sides and have it only apply to OGREs with Descartes Packages. They were as OGRE MINIATURES states certainly harder to kill. This would reflect that.
Interesting ideas. Playtesting would be necessary to fully evaluate them.

My approach is to make the minimum amount of change I think necessary to prevent (what I consider to be) unreasonable tactics from being effective.

Quote:
Why not use Hold-Fire in pure OGRE games?
I suspect - though I have no evidence for it - that Hold Fire will be a net benefit for Ogres, which would affect scenario balance. Since Ogre is such a clean and well-tested game, I guess I'm reluctant to mess with it. Probably nothing more than sentimentality.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 02-08-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:25 AM   #82
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Pennsylvania
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
In the case of Ogres, I'd allow them to hold individual weapon fire. A bit of a hassle, of course.
That would be my preference. It is more to keep track of, but I think it would be worth the effort. It would give the OGRE more tactical choices adding to it's "personality".

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I suspect - though I have no evidence for it - that Hold Fire will be a net benefit for Ogres, which would affect scenario balance.
I do like that it would allow OGREs to not die the untimely and disappointing (as I see it) death countdown vs GEVs once they are reduced to Move 2 and only Secondary Batteries. This would allow them to have some continued combat effectiveness, keeping the battle action going which I like a lot. Instead of just...oh, yeah, your OGREs radioactive toast now even though it still has SBs and a Move of 2, so just fall on your BPC sword now or watch the slow painful playing out as my GEVs whittle you down to a glowing hulk in ultimate humiliation.

True, its changing the balance somewhat, but I would argue it's in such a way that may compliment the game. (Playtesting trials pending of course).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
Since Ogre is such a clean and well-tested game, I guess I'm reluctant to mess with it. Probably nothing more than sentimentality.
Well, if it is an optional rule that compliments the game, I'm all for such things.
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:22 PM   #83
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
I do like that it would allow OGREs to not die the untimely and disappointing (as I see it) death countdown vs GEVs once they are reduced to Move 2 and only Secondary Batteries. This would allow them to have some continued combat effectiveness, keeping the battle action going which I like a lot. Instead of just...oh, yeah, your OGREs radioactive toast now even though it still has SBs and a Move of 2, so just fall on your BPC sword now or watch the slow painful playing out as my GEVs whittle you down to a glowing hulk in ultimate humiliation.

True, its changing the balance somewhat, but I would argue it's in such a way that may compliment the game. (Playtesting trials pending of course).
...
Well, if it is an optional rule that compliments the game, I'm all for such things.
Me too. I'd playtest it in a few straight-up Ogre games, but my gaming time has suddenly been crunched.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:33 AM   #84
Leonidas
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Although it would change the game balance a lot in GEV games with no Ogre maybe (judt maybe) in a positive way, it would dramatically alter the perfect balance in standard Ogre games because the Ogre can simply crush the CP and win the game (Gev or not, reduced movement or not).

I am a big fan of “overwatch” in miniature games, but Ogre is an abstract wargame and a hold fire/overwatch rule might distort the game flow (which I love as it is).

Please, someone from the veterans just playtest it and tell us his feelings about this.
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Old 02-12-2018, 04:15 AM   #85
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Well, I thought I understood this, but I'm having trouble with the sequencing.

Turn 1,

Combine Turn, Combine moves units. Combine has no attacks. Combine Turn ends.

Paneurope Turn, Paneurope moves units. Some of those units are now in some of Combine units attack range.
Paneuropean Fire Phase, Paneurope resolves it's attacks on Combine units.

Does Combine now get to use Hold Fire against those Paneuropean units now in range? For the simultaneous Hold Fire "Phase"?

Does Hold Fire carry over from say, Turn 1 to Turn 2?

From the example above, what if Paneurope had units that didn't Fire on their turn from Turn 1. Then on turn 2, Combine moves units into attack range from Paneuropean units. Can those Paneuropean units then make Hold Fire attacks against those Combine units that just moved into their attack range? If so, do they then also get to make their normal attacks on their Fire Phase?

And to be clear, does a unit have to be declared as using Hold Fire and a token placed with it in order to use it?
What if the player does not see a unit is eligible for Hold Fire, and does not place a token on it? Can it still use it?
I ask because I just play tested a MARK3 ATTACKS Scenario and it seems it becomes a case of apples and oranges regarding the token placement/ Hold Fire declaration because it is more of a natural default state of a unit if it is Hold Firing or not. If it did not fire on it's turn, it by default can Hold Fire, correct?
It just got somewhat unusual and I found myself wondering if I should be marking units that didn't Fire or units that did fire.
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Last edited by Tim Kauffman; 02-12-2018 at 04:37 AM.
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Old 02-12-2018, 05:51 AM   #86
Leonidas
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

In my opinion, the only way to use this is to place an overwatch token for overwatch status. The unit on overwatch may fire to any enemy unit moving into range of attack. Not necessarily with a simultaneous fire mechanic.

It would be a total mess to use with an Ogre, and most probably would unbalance all scenarios involving Ogre.

It would make howitzers and missile tanks far more deadly, for example, and it should be reflected in their cost/unit. GEV would be extremely nerfed.

Ogre is a game a like a lot. It seems I can not play anything else (WH40K, Xwing miniature). I might play some Space Hulk (the game that invented the Overwatch in the first place), but I prefer Ogre anyway. I think that Ogre is the perfect blend of an abstract game and a simulation game, a wargame and a miniature game. That is the charm/mechanics of Ogre that I love. Overwatch, or Hold your Fire, would alter the game flow dramatically. This is just my opinion, as an Ogre newbie.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:51 AM   #87
Tim Kauffman
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
In my opinion, the only way to use this is to place an overwatch token for overwatch status. The unit on overwatch may fire to any enemy unit moving into range of attack. Not necessarily with a simultaneous fire mechanic.
Having it simultaneous after attacker movement during the attackers attack phase actually makes it as fair as it can be. Making it happen as soon as a enemy unit enters their attack range just made it more deadly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
It would be a total mess to use with an Ogre, and most probably would unbalance all scenarios involving Ogre.
I agree it would be more involved to track the OGRE weapons. Would it be worth it? I'm still not sure, but think it would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
It would make howitzers and missile tanks far more deadly, for example, and it should be reflected in their cost/unit. GEV would be extremely nerfed.
It actually does not. Because it occurs on the enemy Fire Phase and is simultaneous. So, units will still be moving under the HWTZ and Missile Tank range umbrellas.

What I am not sure of is if the defender can attack using Hold Fire at that point if they did not fire in their previous turn, and then attack again on their normal Fire Phase. If so, that is still not as deadly as firing as soon as the enemy enters their attack range because the enemy can get closer to the target more often.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
I think that Ogre is the perfect blend of an abstract game and a simulation game, a wargame and a miniature game. That is the charm/mechanics of Ogre that I love.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas View Post
Overwatch, or Hold your Fire, would alter the game flow dramatically. This is just my opinion, as an Ogre newbie.
My play through using this actually surprised me in that it did not occur very much. OGRE is a game best played aggressively, especially with OGREs. You want to position maximum attack strength against enemies while denying them the same opportunity. All it really did was allow for times when there was a "gap" in the combat when it seemed a unit should be able to fire but could not and allow it to happen. That actually seems to work very well.

This Variant Rule in no way takes anything away from OGRE. It would be, if ever proven to be viable and complimentary to the game, just that, a variant and optional rule if players so chose to use it. It actually speaks volumes to the game itself that it is so well done, that such variant rules could possibly be used with it.

WELCOME TO THE 21st CENTURY. :)
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:14 AM   #88
Leonidas
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Having it simultaneous after attacker movement during the attackers attack phase actually makes it as fair as it can be. Making it happen as soon as an enemy unit enters their attack range just made it more deadly.
I agree it would be more involved to track the OGRE weapons. Would it be worth it? I'm still not sure, but think it would.
I agree. It would be much more fair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
It actually does not. Because it occurs on the enemy Fire Phase and is simultaneous. So, units will still be moving under the HWTZ and Missile Tank range umbrellas.
I agree. You are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
What I am not sure of is if the defender can attack using Hold Fire at that point if they did not fire in their previous turn, and then attack again on their normal Fire Phase. If so, that is still not as deadly as firing as soon as the enemy enters their attack range because the enemy can get closer to the target more often.
I think that the unit which used HYF should be able to fire again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
My playthrough using this actually surprised me in that it did not occur very much. OGRE is a game best played aggressively, especially with OGREs. You want to position maximum attack strength against enemies while denying them the same opportunity. All it really did was allow for times when there was a "gap" in the combat when it seemed a unit should be able to fire but could not and allow it to happen. That actually seems to work very well.

This Variant Rule in no way takes anything away from OGRE. It would be, if ever proven to be viable and complementary to the game, just that, a variant and optional rule if players so chose to use it. It actually speaks volumes to the game itself that it is so well done, that such variant rules could possibly be used with it.
I see the problem. A simultaneous firing phase should discourage turtling tactics and sounds better than my "overwatch" (i.e. fire as the enemy enters in range).

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Old 02-12-2018, 12:15 PM   #89
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
Well, I thought I understood this, but I'm having trouble with the sequencing.

Turn 1,

Combine Turn, Combine moves units. Combine has no attacks. Combine Turn ends.
At this point, Combine units that could have fired (i.e. not disabled) but didn't now have a Hold Fire marker put on them. Groups can be designated with one marker, so long as it's clear.

Quote:
Paneurope Turn, Paneurope moves units. Some of those units are now in some of Combine units attack range.
Paneuropean Fire Phase, Paneurope resolves it's attacks on Combine units.

Does Combine now get to use Hold Fire against those Paneuropean units now in range? For the simultaneous Hold Fire "Phase"?
I'd let the Combine player resolve attacks first. However, the *effects* of those attacks wouldn't occur until the Paneuropean attacks are completed.

Quote:
Does Hold Fire carry over from say, Turn 1 to Turn 2?
Not exactly. Using the above example, Combine units conduct Hold Fire during the Paneuropean combat phase. Units that don't execute Hold Fire attacks lose that status at the end of the Paneuropean turn. But they can take a new Hold Fire marker in their next combat phase (if they otherwise qualify).

Quote:
From the example above, what if Paneurope had units that didn't Fire on their turn from Turn 1. Then on turn 2, Combine moves units into attack range from Paneuropean units. Can those Paneuropean units then make Hold Fire attacks against those Combine units that just moved into their attack range? If so, do they then also get to make their normal attacks on their Fire Phase?

And to be clear, does a unit have to be declared as using Hold Fire and a token placed with it in order to use it?
Yes, I think that is necessary for clarity.

Quote:
What if the player does not see a unit is eligible for Hold Fire, and does not place a token on it? Can it still use it?
Depends on how friendly the game is. I'd be fairly strict about it, because the moving player may make decisions based on which enemy units are Hold(ing) Fire.

...It just got somewhat unusual and I found myself wondering if I should be marking units that didn't Fire or units that did fire.[/QUOTE]

I would mark them, at least until everyone is familiar with how the rule works.

Note that units won't typically use Hold Fire once they close the range with the enemy. A unit is far better off shooting at an available target in its combat phase, rather than shooting at that target with Hold Fire.

As an aside, units with Hold Fire markers are attacked normally in Overrun combat. (They get to shoot first in Overrun combat, which prevents weird results.) They don't lose their Hold Fire status because of Overrun combat (I.e., they're treated the same as moving stands.)
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Old 02-12-2018, 12:25 PM   #90
ianargent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Would hold fire make the PBI even less likely to survive, though?
Right now, once the Other has been brought down to M2, the PBI can stay "behind" the Ogre and the Ogre has to choose to spend a turn not moving to mow then down with AP, or advance towards the objectives. With Hold Fire, the Ogre can just hold fire and attack the infantry as they approach. That's as much of a change as an ME (Edit: This should be M2) Ones (Edit: This should be Ogre) not being able to catch a GEV

Last edited by ianargent; 02-13-2018 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Correcting Autocorrect.
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