Five Earths, All in a Row

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Um, 'destruction of the Moon?' What? Did I make a typo somewhere, or are you misremembering the comet that broke up over Clockpunk Earth that started people getting powers on that Earth?

I misremembered but the break up of the comet does still put the kabosh on Aristotelian Cosmology of the heavens being perfect and all that other stuff.

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

In the specific case of the 'Pope' (Bishop of Rome) on Earth-5/Fantasy Earth, he is Pope Fabian II, a half-elf who is not so much the leader of a united Catholic Church of Rome, as the generally agreed-upon spokesman for the various Christian factions who think they should be lead from Rome. No Constantine, no Council of Nicea, no Universal Church. Lots and lots of factions, though. I think the search function of YouTube has a few vids on early Christian schisms, and the Extra History (Or is it Extra Credits) channel has a series with that name. Just imagine that more new schisms kept coming without Nicea, but the factions Fabian II represents are the ones who are not actually inclined to kill each other over it (partly because the Imperatores rather seriously objected, even - perhaps especially - after repealing most of the anti-Christian laws over the intervening centuries).

Rationwiki's Basic history of Christianity gives the cliff notes on what the situation was. Even with Nicea the schisms continued to the point that two 5th century Eastern Emperors tried (unsuccessfully) to keep the schisming chaos to a minimum; they failed as the various schisms simply packed their bags and when to where the Eastern Empire couldn't easily get to them.

With no Constantine Council of Nicea, or Universal Church it is safe to say Christianity would be effectively Balkanized to the point Fabian II might as well be herding cats.

I would like to point out that the claims of "anti-Christian laws" have irregularities that bring into question if they were actually "anti-Christian" or "Christians" just go caught up in a poorly thought out decree.

Take Decius for example. Non Christian Jews would have died under his decree (in fact before the edict they were one of the few groups allowed to not have to make sacrifices to the Emperor or revere him as a living "god") Also Christians who regarded Jesus as simply a man (documented in the 2nd century Against Heresies) would have had no problem making sacrifices to Decius and would not have been effected by his Edict.

Then there is the Chrestians/Christians problem. There is evidence of a pagan cult going back to at least the 1st century BCE and perhaps as far back as 5th century BCE called "Chrestian" which was also taken up by some followers of Jesus some time after 44 CE.

So you have some followers of Jesus calling themselves "Chrestian" and a pagan cult that worshiped Serapis (Chrestus) that also called itself "Chrestian". So which is actually being talked about in how the Empire treated Jesus based Chrestianity and which is propaganda using the name confusion?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

I misremembered but the break up of the comet does still put the kabosh on Aristotelian Cosmology of the heavens being perfect and all that other stuff.

Oh, yes, that part is certainly true. That doesn't mean that people were happy about it, or that no-one resisted the change, but it does mean that a lot of the chaos that would otherwise have happened on Earth-4 (and that was glossed over on Earth-5, but did occur in some areas) had already happened a century prior.

Originally Posted by maximara

Rationwiki's Basic history of Christianity gives the cliff notes on what the situation was. Even with Nicea the schisms continued to the point that two 5th century Eastern Emperors tried (unsuccessfully) to keep the schisming chaos to a minimum; they failed as the various schisms simply packed their bags and when to where the Eastern Empire couldn't easily get to them.

With no Constantine Council of Nicea, or Universal Church it is safe to say Christianity would be effectively Balkanized to the point Fabian II might as well be herding cats.

I was oversimplifying, but yes, he often does feel like he's trying to herd cats, and that's just dealing with the sects that get along reasonably well with each other. The main reason for a lot of the Popes getting chosen as Pope on Earth-5 the past century or so has been being an excellent diplomat.

Originally Posted by maximara

I would like to point out that the claims of "anti-Christian laws" have irregularities that bring into question if they were actually "anti-Christian" or "Christians" just go caught up in a poorly thought out decree.

Take Decius for example. Non Christian Jews would have died under his decree (in fact before the edict they were one of the few groups allowed to not have to make sacrifices to the Emperor or revere him as a living "god") Also Christians who regarded Jesus as simply a man (documented in the 2nd century Against Heresies) would have had no problem making sacrifices to Decius and would not have been effected by his Edict.

Perhaps when I work it into the Earth-5 timeline (still a work in progress), I should call them 'effectively anti-Christian' laws. Some probably were anti-Christian on purpose, though.

Originally Posted by maximara

Then there is the Chrestians/Christians problem. There is evidence of a pagan cult going back to at least the 1st century BCE and perhaps as far back as 5th century BCE called "Chrestian" which was also taken up by some followers of Jesus some time after 44 CE.

So you have some followers of Jesus calling themselves "Chrestian" and a pagan cult that worshiped Serapis (Chrestus) that also called itself "Chrestian". So which is actually being talked about in how the Empire treated Jesus based Chrestianity and which is propaganda using the name confusion?

Had not known about Chrestians, but it's a good point. Fabian II isn't representing any worshipers of Chrestus/Serapis, though.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Had not known about Chrestians, but it's a good point. Fabian II isn't representing any worshipers of Chrestus/Serapis, though.

The whole Chrestus thing is really bizarre as there are inscriptions to a Jesus Chrestos (Jesus the Good) rather then Jesus Christ (Jesus the Messiah): a record of baptism in a Cemetery of Callisto's sepulchral inscription (268 CE), the Deir Ali Inscription (318 CE) PGM IV. 3007-86 (c 4th century), and The Manichaean Manuscripts (4th century).

In fact, when looked at from a gentile POV Chrestus makes a lot more sense then Christus as the related terms better fit the view of Jesus:

chraomai: consulting an oracle
chresterion: "the seat of an oracle" and "an offering to, or for, the oracle."
Chrestes: one who expounds or explains oracles, "a prophet, a soothsayer"
chresterios (χρηστήριος): one who belongs to, or is in the service of, an oracle, a god, or a "Master"
theochrestos: "God-declared," or one who is declared by god.

More over the Chrestus/Serapis cult in Alexandria had "bishops" so things were not as clear cut as people think.

There may have been other groups that called themselves Chrestians; we simply don't know.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I was oversimplifying, but yes, he often does feel like he's trying to herd cats, and that's just dealing with the sects that get along reasonably well with each other. The main reason for a lot of the Popes getting chosen as Pope on Earth-5 the past century or so has been being an excellent diplomat.

As Against Heresies shows Christianity was badly Balkanized even in the late 2nd century (a comment by Paul shows schisms forming in the 50-60 CE period)

One of the main reasons Constantine called for the Council of Nicaea was to deal with the issues described in Early Christian Schisms - II: The Woes of Constantine - Extra History.

If that wasn't "fun" enough then there is Early Christian Schisms - III: The Council of Nicaea - Extra History which shows one of the major issues in the Church.

Then there is Early Christian Schisms - IV: Ephesus, the Robber Council, and Chalcedon - Extra History which just before the Western Empire ended.

Finally there is the one thing bigger then all of this: the multitude of clearly different humanoid races. Many parts of the Old Testament have to account for these other races. Where did they came from? Are they (as some thought was true of Blacks) children of Cain? What of the Flood; were there two of every race on the Arc or can they all claim kinship with Noah's family? Would the resulting Old Testament even be recognizable to someone of our world?

It is an even bigger issue then what happened with Christianity on Yrth and I doubt that it would be recognizable (explaining its unity is an even bigger problem then that of Yrth). Yrth had to adapt an already existing set of holy writings to a clearly different world; the Christianity of Fantasy Earth has no such advantage.

The pagan religions actually would have a better time of it as each race could have its own origin myth which could be combined into a large pantheon. The D&D orcs have something like this for their origin myth (though it was 'you try to deprive my people of a place to live? Well I will have them live in places no one else would want and when they grow strong they will destroy your races!')

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

The pagan religions actually would have a better time of it as each race could have its own origin myth which could be combined into a large pantheon. The D&D orcs have something like this for their origin myth (though it was 'you try to deprive my people of a place to live? Well I will have them live in places no one else would want and when they grow strong they will destroy your races!')

Given the Fa-Earth orcs' preference for cold climates, that may well be the case for them, as well (or at least, that's what I'm leaning toward).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Given the Fa-Earth orcs' preference for cold climates, that may well be the case for them, as well (or at least, that's what I'm leaning toward).

The Orcs could also "Orcify" the Norse pantheon as it does fit some of the mindset seen with D&D orcs. There is a lot of parallel between Gruumsh and Odin.

Worshipers of Gruumsh cut out one of their own eyes to be more like him and that is not the only thing Warcraft kind of raided from D&D. :-)

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

The Orcs could also "Orcify" the Norse pantheon as it does fit some of the mindset seen with D&D orcs. There is a lot of parallel between Gruumsh and Odin.

Worshipers of Gruumsh cut out one of their own eyes to be more like him and that is not the only thing Warcraft kind of raided from D&D. :-)

I'm thinking that both versions of the faith on Earth-5 might have rituals that involve giving up an eye for wisdom. Mechanically, this could be done by taking the -15 point 'One Eye' disad, and either adding another -5 point disad or going into point debt (to spend the resulting 20 points on IQ+1), buying a point of IQ with -25% worth of limitations on it, or buying fifteen points of wisdom-related Talent levels (Born War-Leader+3 is fairly popular, obviously, but so is Spirit-Talker+3, or some combinations, like Healer+1 and Born War-Leader+1). In all cases, I would allow it as long as it is done ritually and with successful Ritual Magic/Religious Ritual/Divine Favor rolls, not just 'pop out an eye and get smarter.'


To clarify for those who are wondering: My Orcs are not just dumb brutes. Sure, they are on average less intelligent than humans, and are not culturally driven toward intellectual pursuits, but that's not the same as disdaining leaders that have cunning, or having no respectable place in their culture for someone with higher IQ than ST or DX. They have a stereotype among humans of being dumb brutes, but they respect any clear survival advantage, and 'being jolly clever' is an advantage.

[maximara]

I did a slight tweek on Infoworld's original divergence on the GURPSwiki:

1994; Doctor Paul Van Zandt doesn't invent parachronics. There may be previous divergences but they are unknown

Paul Van Zandt could have still been born but didn't go down the path he did in Homeline.

Edit: On a side note, just how powerful are the abilities and thoughforms the spirits can create?

There are things in anime/manga that are insane even by Western 4 color comic standards.

* Effectively the entire cast of Dragonball Z.

* Lina Inverse and company; Who needs Little Boy/Fat Man when you have Dragon Slave? In the anime it sometimes works like a reverse neutron bomb ie destroys the buildings but not the people. (Several people have been at ground zero of a full power Dragon Slave and survived...the same cannot be said of the town they were in)

* The Sailor Scouts and their enemies. You have that Cthulhuian Pharaoh 90, Witches 5 servants and Mistress 9 summoner as well as the Doom Phantom. Queen Beryl and her life draining Youma (anime version) and generals (manga and anime versions) who live in what is effectively a pocket reality (The Dark Kingdom) Then you have Chaos who in one version is the actual power behind all the other groups. That is without all the magic/super science tech that have; Time Space Door (poor man's Guardian of Forever); Mercury's computer (it is advanced even by 2018 standards); and means to make all the planets, Pluto, and Earth's Moon inhabitable are the three biggies.

* The technology like Steel Angel Kurumi (which might give you some ideas regarding DpEarth Earth tech as the first series was set in the 1920s and while the Angels are from a possible future they inspired some 1920s mecha; it looks like a cross between an officer and sentinel) and that seen in the Macros/Robotech series. In fact technology is going to have the biggest issue as there is so much popular stuff both imported and native for the spirits to try to make real.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by maximara

Edit: On a side note, just how powerful are the abilities and thoughforms the spirits can create?

Generally speaking, it's not purely a question of 'can,' but also of 'will.' As noted earlier, 1,000 point or higher characters are very rare, but they do exist, mostly on Earth-2. 500 to 600 point characters are more common, but quite a lot, but most psis are 25 to 50 point characters with 5 points or less of abilities.

The most powerful psis that the average person on Earth-1 or Earth-2 is likely to meet in their lifetime have around 300 to 400 points of psi abilities, and 100 to 200 points of mundane abilities. That's not counting aliens and such.

Incidentally, I was thinking that if Paul Van Zandt does not exist in Real Life, he also doesn't exist on Earth-1, but I also think I included a counterpart of his with a slightly different name (Paul Vincent? Peter Vincent?) in the timeline.

Next post will be an article.

[Prince Charon]

Space-warp based sub-light drives

Æther Screw: This design, externally resembling an elongated cone with a number of flanges extending from it (spinning when in use), scales up better than it scales down, and is 'noisy' or 'bright' to sensors capable of perceiving space-warps. Æther Screws have a lower pseudoacceleration (change in pseudovelocity, including manoeuverability) and lower maximum pseudovelocity than Ether Propellers of comparable size. Developed on Steampunk Earth.

Ether Propeller: These machines scale down better than they scale up, and are 'louder' than the Æther Screw. The 'working' section of the device resembles a disc or ring, spinning rapidly around its central axis, and like the Æther Screw is mounted perpendicular to the direction of flight. They have a higher pseudoacceleration and maximum pseudovelocity than Æther Screws, but are not as good for long journeys, due to energy consumption, stress, and maintenance needs. Developed on Dieselpunk Earth.

Warp Coil (& similar constructions): A spacetime warping device that scales up nearly as well as an Æther Screw, and down nearly as well as an Ether Propeller. The coils tend to be ring-shaped, and are most often lined up in cylindrical nacelles, though smaller numbers of large warp-coils may be used, mounted in ring-shaped nacelles concentric to the hull. Mass for mass and volume for volume, warp coils tend to have a higher pseudoacceleration and maximum pseudovelocity than Ether Propellers, while being better for long journeys than the Æther Screw. Manufacture of this design requires a higher technology base (in particular, faster computers), and the world of the mind that comes with it, than the other space-warping technurgy on this list. Much less 'noisy' than Æther Screws and Ether Propellers, while clearly 'louder' than aethere paddles, and much louder than aethere sails. Developed on Infopunk Earth.

Aethere Sail: Wide, flexible sheets of alchemically-treated material with no moving parts, beyond the need for the sail to be turned or furled/unfurled to control the pseudovelocity and pseudoacceleration. They tap into the solar wind and large gravity wells, which also supply power. 'Quieter' than any other space-warp method, but entirely depended on external sources. Developed on Clockpunk Earth, but very popular with Fantasy/Dungeonpunk Earth.

Aethere Paddle: Long, enchanted staves that require fairly little energy, but are quite slow compared to the other methods on this list, and require constantly repeated efforts of will from multiple oarsmen, though they do not require physical motion. Useful to help steer vessels equipped with aethere sails, and to maneuver them in becalmed conditions. 'Louder' than aethere sails, but 'quieter' than the other methods. Developed on Fantasy Earth as they transition into Dungeonpunk Earth.