[High-Tech] Tear Gas Ammo (HT171) vs. the 7.62x51 Israeli CS Tear Gas cartridge

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

High-Tech limits tear gas ammo to 10mm+ calibres. However, it seems that the 7.62x51 Israeli CS Tear Gas cartridge is way below that. So, is the minimum calibre in error, or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance!

[Tomsdad]

Given the rules on gas/smoke rounds that cite the minimum calibre don't actually give you rules for how much gas is released by what size round, but rather leaves that detail to specific listings per round*. I wouldn't worry too much about the hard and fast lower limit, especially if you have a real life example of it working (RL trumps RAW when it comes to what's realistically possible)

Just have a low calibre round leave a smaller cloud and maybe make it an easier affliction check


Going by the figures below I'd say a 7.62 is going to effect a single hex and not stick around for long unless you hit the same hex with a few (maybe one second per round in normal conditions). I'm guessing real life these work best when you fire several anyway. They will also be Barricade-Penetrating by dint of their velocity, with the Dmg 2d-1(0.5) cr rules. I could see them being of use against occupants of a car or truck cab.

I'm not sure they would cycle an automatic action either.

They were only made for a short time over 50 years ago so not sure they were that useful, either way they would be TL7-8 so 1-2 TL's over introduction TL that alone could explain the lower than Min calibre given.


The fact that you'd have to hit the hex your target is in and if you hit your target directly by accident they'd take 2d-1(0.5) cr also might model why they weren't a big success!



*for instance the 40mm tear gas shell has a 8 yard radius (HT pg143) and the 12g (so 18.5mm) has radius of 4 yards (HT pg103)

[Varyon]

The HT rules are for tear gas canisters. The Israeli round is going to be a Poison round filled with CS. Simply striking a hard surface should be enough to aerosolize it. My guess would be a burst of them would fill a single hex with CS. Hitting someone's armored Head or Torso is probably enough to affect them. I'm not certain what effect CS would have in an open wound - my guess would be that actually being shot with one of these (without armor absorbing the hit) would inflict Agony, or perhaps a lesser level of pain.

EDIT: A little more research indicates these were only made for about a month, so they probably weren't very effective. My suggestions above might be making them more useful than they really were, but honestly CS is something you use when you don't want to kill somebody, so putting them in bullets like this makes very little sense.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The HT rules are for tear gas canisters. The Israeli round is going to be a Poison round filled with CS. Simply striking a hard surface should be enough to aerosolize it. My guess would be a burst of them would fill a single hex with CS. Hitting someone's armored Head or Torso is probably enough to affect them. I'm not certain what effect CS would have in an open wound - my guess would be that actually being shot with one of these (without armor absorbing the hit) would inflict Agony, or perhaps a lesser level of pain.

EDIT: A little more research indicates these were only made for about a month, so they probably weren't very effective. My suggestions above might be making them more useful than they really were, but honestly CS is something you use when you don't want to kill somebody, so putting them in bullets like this makes very little sense.

I know that there were a couple of Anti-Tank rounds with teargas in them. They were intended to drive the crew out of armored vehicles. I'm guessing that the 7.62 NATO round was for non-armored vehicles.

Edit: I found this video that is suposedly the round being tested.

Tear gas bullets

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

I know that there were a couple of Anti-Tank rounds with teargas in them. They were intended to drive the crew out of armored vehicles.

Here's one of them. The steel core of the round tended to penetrate armour, but leave the tear gas capsule outside. This, and the tiny volume of gas, is probably why GURPS:WWII describes the tear gas as "too little to worry about in game terms."

We actually used a tear gas grenade in last week's WWII game. When you're trying to catch and question agents who are willing to kill themselves rather than be taken, it's quite handy. The PCs are British, and there was no British tear gas grenade; we'd bought a few of the ones from Pulp Guns 2 in the USA.

[HANS]

These are not Tear Gas shells (High-Tech, p. 171), but a variant of the Poison projectile (High-Tech, p. 167), with a very small useful radius (probably 1-yard) and limited effectiveness (HT-1 rolls due to low concentration). They were not successful, just like their German predecessors used in early WWII.
Or in other words, more or less what the others have said ;)

Cheers

HANS