What TL is the original Star Trek?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Wasn't the atavachron a device they encountered on an alien planet that had been created by its civilization? That seems like about as good evidence of the Federation's TL as Cortez's cannons are of the Aztec Empire's TL. The Enterprise encountering near-incomprehensible alien tech is one of the default plots for original Trek episodes, after all.

I think I remember that "The Naked Time" had the time reversal taking place as an unanticipated byproduct of the crazy maneuver Spock and Scott used to regain engine function. At best it was a one-time invention at or beyond the cutting edge of Federation tech; it may have been a discovery that pointed the way toward a tech they didn't yet have, like Galvani's twitching frog legs.

Classic case of the "Forgetium" that happens in Star Trek.

Spock knew of the intermix formula and stated "It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter."

After using the formula Spock comments: "This does open some intriguing prospects, Captain. Since the formula worked, we can go back in time, to any planet, any era."

It was a desperate application of an already existing formula on standard warp drive engines not a one-time invention nor beyond the cutting edge of Federation tech. I don't think there is a canonal reason why it hasn't been used again.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

We have no real idea of the civilian technology on Earth during the TOS because the show happens in or beyond the frontier. Even if they ended up in the Sol System, light lag makes any attempt to access the internet useless. Toys like laptops, smartphones, and tablets would be for civilians who have access to planetary networks.

There is nothing about TOS tech that eliminates the idea of a FTL internet though it is clear that Starfleet is far more military minded then in the later eras.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

When you are serving on a USN ship under deployment, it is useless to bring your laptops, your smartphones, or your tablets (the ships generally do not have cell service or wifi). Why would it be any different with a spaceship? What internet are you going to access 100 ly from the Earth?

Why are you thinking of a "computer" as a communication device? Starfleet officers often have to do calculations, solve problems, or model device or phenomena. A computer is useful for all of those even if it doesn't communicate with anything except the user. You seem to be imposing a (later) TL8 model on a program that was being produced at TL7.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by maximara

There is nothing about TOS tech that eliminates the idea of a FTL internet though it is clear that Starfleet is far more military minded then in the later eras.

Didn't it take several days for a message to go from Vulcan (40 Eridani, about sixteen and a quarter lightyears, according to Roddenberry) to Earth and back during "Amok Time"? Kinda negates the idea of an interstellar Internet. (Not sure about Earth-to-Mars or Earth-to-Saturn internet, tho; that may be viable in near-realtime.)

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Didn't it take several days for a message to go from Vulcan (40 Eridani, about sixteen and a quarter lightyears, according to Roddenberry) to Earth and back during "Amok Time"? Kinda negates the idea of an interstellar Internet. (Not sure about Earth-to-Mars or Earth-to-Saturn internet, tho; that may be viable in near-realtime.)

I don't think that's an accurate description. The Enterprise arrives at Vulcan, and Kirk, McCoy, and Spock beam down. They interact with T'Pol, and seemingly make a good impression on her; she says that Spock chose his friends well. McCoy beams up with Kirk's "body," and a few minutes later Spock beams up. And not long after that, Uhura relays a message to Kirk from Starfleet Command telling him that he's ordered to go to Vulcan—which seemingly means he's forgiven for going there without orders.

Even if you allow some dramatic license about how quickly the message got there, it looks as if T'Pol got onto the communicator with Earth and asked for Kirk's arrival to be approved, and Starfleet made the decision and sent it back, with only minutes delay.

Also, during Kirk's earlier conversation with the Admiral, there were no perceptible delays between their remarks.

[AlexanderHowl]

A tricorder is used for computing, recording, and sensing in Star Trek. It is a highly advanced computing device that is capable of basically every form of sensing known. It is a tiny computer (computing and recording functions) combined with an Ultrascanner (sensing function). The fact that the tricorder did the majority of the calculations without being asked just meant that the computer was very, very good.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A tricorder is used for computing, recording, and sensing in Star Trek. It is a highly advanced computing device that is capable of basically every form of sensing known. It is a tiny computer (computing and recording functions) combined with an Ultrascanner (sensing function). The fact that the tricorder did the majority of the calculations without being asked just meant that the computer was very, very good.

Is there any indication in the dialogue in the original three seasons that it has any computing functions? After all, we now are accustomed to instruments having not merely electronic circuits for processing signals or recording them, but analog-to-digital converters, digital circuits to transform the data, and memory chips to record them. But in the 1950s and 1960, this was all done with analog circuits. A voltmeter or an oscilloscope or a spectrum analyzer had no chips of any kind. Those were the instruments that anyone with a tech background in 1968 was familiar with. I don't see why they would have assumed that a "computer" (a device that occupied about as much space as a set of bookshelves) could be fitted into a handheld gadget, or that one would be needed to perform the specified functions; can you show that that assumption was made in the scripts?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Is there any indication in the dialogue in the original three seasons that it has any computing functions?

Honestly any multiscanner has to perform computing functions.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Honestly any multiscanner has to perform computing functions.

Does that equate to a claim that it has to convert signals from analog to digital and process the digital inputs? Or is this counting, say, a vacuum tube voltmeter as "computing" things by analog processes?

[whswhs]

Just to add to this, I got out my copy of UT and compared the show with it. In this, I'm going only by episodes of the original TV series that came on the air in 1966. I'm disregarding any technologies that count as superscience (such as warp drive, matter transmitters, and disintegration weapons), as canonically those could appear at any TL, and therefore having them is not strong evidence of being a particular TL. I'm not speculating about how we might now imagine something to be done or what we might believe to have to exist by implication; I'm going only by what was actually said or shown on the show.

TL9: ST: TOS lacks neural interfaces, mobile robots, and any significant use of body armor or powered exoskeleta. It has antimatter and uses in in space propulsion, and it has at least significant advances in bioscience. It has cheap access to orbit using SSTO shuttles; it doesn't seem to have space elevators. It no longer uses conventional firearms, and the listed TL9 energy weapons don't seem to be in use.

TL10: There are no inexpensive sapient machines or microbot swarms. Life expectancy is not in multiple centuries. There is no evidence of living plastics. There definitely are power storage devices sufficient for handheld energy weapons.

TL11: Products are not made out of inexpensively manufactured diamond, and there is no mention of artificial exotic materials. Antimatter is not used for small-scale energy storage. There isn't anything as advanced as a chrysalis machine, nor can minds be copied. There are powerful beam weapons, the phaser being the obvious case.

TL12: There are no machines for imprinting consciousness into human brains. It doesn't appear that there are simple pills that can regenerate the human body; too many red shirts die of fairly simple injuries. Society does not appear to be run by intelligent machines, and there is no meaningful integration of living and mechanical beings. ST: TOS certainly isn't breaking up gas giants for raw materials!

Given this, it seems to me that quite a few TL9 and TL10 inventions are in common use. The only TL11 technology seems to be powerful beam weapons (photon torpedoes and ship's phasers). There don't seem to be the miracle technologies of TL12 at all. A lot of technology would be behind the scenes, and the most we can say is that there's not overt evidence for it.

My guess would be TL10; TL 11 isn't inconceivable, but less likely; TL12 is right out. On the other hand, TL9 is clearly in ST's past. There appear to be significant elements of emergent superscience, some earlier than UT's suggestions for their appropriate TLs. There also are scientists and engineers who can make major breakthroughs singlehanded.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Just to add to this, I got out my copy of UT and compared the show with it. In this, I'm going only by episodes of the original TV series that came on the air in 1966. I'm disregarding any technologies that count as superscience (such as warp drive, matter transmitters, and disintegration weapons), as canonically those could appear at any TL, and therefore having them is not strong evidence of being a particular TL. I'm not speculating about how we might now imagine something to be done or what we might believe to have to exist by implication; I'm going only by what was actually said or shown on the show.

TL9: ST: TOS lacks neural interfaces, mobile robots, and any significant use of body armor or powered exoskeleta. It has antimatter and uses in in space propulsion, and it has at least significant advances in bioscience. It has cheap access to orbit using SSTO shuttles; it doesn't seem to have space elevators. It no longer uses conventional firearms, and the listed TL9 energy weapons don't seem to be in use.

It should be mentioned the antimatter in Star Trek is cinematic in nature and therefore could be TL7^ antimatter rather then true TL9 antimatter. Like it or not Britannica-5 with its TL5^ antimatter set the president of "realistic" tech appearing way before when it is "supposed" to being superscience. So the just the presence of antimatter doesn't make things TL9.

Originally Posted by whswhs

TL10: There are no inexpensive sapient machines or microbot swarms. Life expectancy is not in multiple centuries. There is no evidence of living plastics. There definitely are power storage devices sufficient for handheld energy weapons.

Energy weapons that are superscience because they work like disintegrators which Ultra-tech labels a TL12^
I should mention that TL12^ it is ridiculous as any TL can be connected to the superscience label so having a number there really serves no purpose. GURPS BioTech realized this and just uses the "^".

Originally Posted by whswhs

TL11: Products are not made out of inexpensively manufactured diamond, and there is no mention of artificial exotic materials. Antimatter is not used for small-scale energy storage. There isn't anything as advanced as a chrysalis machine, nor can minds be copied. There are powerful beam weapons, the phaser being the obvious case.

TL12: There are no machines for imprinting consciousness into human brains. It doesn't appear that there are simple pills that can regenerate the human body; too many red shirts die of fairly simple injuries. Society does not appear to be run by intelligent machines, and there is no meaningful integration of living and mechanical beings. ST: TOS certainly isn't breaking up gas giants for raw materials!

Originally Posted by whswhs

Given this, it seems to me that quite a few TL9 and TL10 inventions are in common use. The only TL11 technology seems to be powerful beam weapons (photon torpedoes and ship's phasers). There don't seem to be the miracle technologies of TL12 at all. A lot of technology would be behind the scenes, and the most we can say is that there's not overt evidence for it.

My guess would be TL10; TL 11 isn't inconceivable, but less likely; TL12 is right out. On the other hand, TL9 is clearly in ST's past. There appear to be significant elements of emergent superscience, some earlier than UT's suggestions for their appropriate TLs. There also are scientists and engineers who can make major breakthroughs singlehanded.

This still runs into the problem of a TL6 civilization being able to take apart a piece of Federation technology (without breaking it), understand how a key component works (the transtator), and recreate Federation technology based on just their understanding of that one part "in a few years".

People keep trying to blow off this key element regarding Star Trek Tech from "A Piece of the Action" as 'comedy' but they forget that Spock is in on that conversion and in his own words (in another episode) 'he never jokes'.

So Kirk is trying to make light of what is a totally viable possibility.

“An ancestor of mine maintained that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the solution." - Spock.

Ergo the Federation in TOS cannot be any higher then TL9 otherwise a TL6 culture could not duplicate Federation tech. (barring any Wildcard skills and there is nothing to suggest the Iotians have those.)

Remember it took the Iotians a full century, even with books with TL6 information, to go from TL5 to TL6. This time around all they have is one piece of tech. Yet that one piece of tech can put them on par with the Federation "in a few years". Remember the Iotians are bright and imitative; they got to the world described in Chicago Mobs of the Twenties and stopped in terms of culture and technology.

This points to TOS being TL(6+3)^ perhaps TL(7+2)^ (transtator TL6^ Medicine: TL7^) All transtator based tech is TL6^ with the rest TL(6+3)^ or TL(7+2)^ .