Japanese Tea Ceremonies (and other artistic peculiarities)

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Most people don't study how to manipulate others, and seldom make deliberate effort at it. Most reaction rolls will be merely Neutral, which is "just getting along".

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Except for General Reactions (arguably) every other kind of Reaction Roll is precisely about getting what you want.
You are allowed to substitute an Influence skill for a reaction roll, I don't see anywhere by RAW that you can use them as a reroll.

Alright, if you really wanna go to the mat on this one.

A neutral reaction is not "just getting along." An average roll will be between 9 and 11. A 10 or 11 will result in:

General reaction: The NPC
ignores the PCs as much as possible.
He is totally uninterested.

And a 9 will result in:

General reaction: The NPC is
unimpressed. He may become hostile
if there is much profit in it, or
little danger.

So, if you just walk into a party or start chatting with people, you're either going to get flat stares, or a rude dismissal. That might be your definition of "getting along," but it's not the sort of thing meant when Fwibos said:

Originally Posted by Fwibos

I could see it being Carousing and the Perk: Carousing based on IQ for gossips.

Of course, I have noticed that there really isn't a "just get a long" skill. Sort of a diplomacy lite. I'd say maybe an easy skill, defaults to IQ, gives a good reaction and never worse than a neutral reaction on General reactions, requests for information. Roll at -3 for requests for aid? I'm just spitballing here. Or maybe it can be used if a reaction roll goes poorly to make it neutral with no penalty?

For one thing, a Neutral reaction is most decidedly not a Good one. Second, he's describing an actual skill (as in something you can invest points into and learn, as opposed to having inherently), which your solution does not fix either. Finally, we're talking about a skill that would allow you to just chat with people or gossip with them or hang out with them at a party and get along just fine (as in, have people smile and respond to you, instead of waiting for you to leave so they can get back to the interesting people) without investing a horrendous amount of points into it, as Diplomacy requires.

Savoir-Faire is that skill. It's easy, it represents "appropriate behavior" (straight from the book), and it will give you a Good reaction (necessary both to fulfill his request, and fitting with wanting to have people react well to us:

General reaction: The NPC likes
the PCs and is helpful within reasonable,
everyday limits.

Thus, if you want to be a nice conversationalist and you don't want to buy Diplomacy, Fast-Talk or Sex-Appeal, you pick up Savoir-Faire.

You claim that people don't learn "to manipulate people like that," but people do, in fact, study manners. A person who has no Savoir-Faire at all is considered a somewhat rude person (which fits the default Neutral/Poor reaction one would get from just relying on his default reaction rolls). A single point would represent a well-mannered person, who can generally get by in most social situations that his Savoir-Faire covers.

And as for Influence rolls replacing Reaction rolls, I didn't say it gave you a reroll, I said it "gave you a second chance to make a good first impression," which is a euphamism for what's going on. A beautiful character earns her positive reaction by just being pretty. The NPC is dazzled immediately. A character with Savoir-Faire or Diplomacy does not have this first impression. He earns his good reaction by talking first. You can be hideously ugly and smell bad, and if you have sufficient Diplomacy, you can turn people around and get them to think highly of you, thus getting past their negative first impression.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Savoir-Faire is that skill. It's easy, it represents "appropriate behavior" (straight from the book), and it will give you a Good reaction (necessary both to fulfill his request, and fitting with wanting to have people react well to us:

I'm not saying that Savior-Faire isn't appropriate for someone who's actively trying to get along in formal social situations, but note there isn't a Savior-Faire specialization for regular folks.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm not saying that Savior-Faire isn't appropriate for someone who's actively trying to get along in formal social situations, but note there isn't a Savior-Faire specialization for regular folks.

Originally Posted by B218

Savoir-Faire (High Society) is the
most common specialty, and you may
list this as simply “Savoir-Faire” on
your character sheet

The guy who knows Savoir-Faire (High Society) is probably going to do well at impressing his boss, his girlfriend's dad, or when introducing himself to new colleagues. Or, at least, he'll prevent hostility.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The guy who knows Savoir-Faire (High Society) is probably going to do well at impressing his boss, his girlfriend's dad, or when introducing himself to new colleagues. Or, at least, he'll prevent hostility.

It might not fly well in an underworld bar, or even in a trailer park. Savior-Faire seems to be about societies with formal rules, like etiquette or military regulation.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It might not fly well in an underworld bar, or even in a trailer park.

In my experience, it does pretty well in a trailer park. In an underworld bar, you'd use Savoir-Faire (Mafia) or Streetwise (which is also an influence skill).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

In my experience, it does pretty well in a trailer park.

Even down to refusing to eat salad with the dinner fork? What about more stratified societies where "putting on airs" is seen as offensive by the lower classes?

In an underworld bar, you'd use Savoir-Faire (Mafia) or Streetwise (which is also an influence skill).

Sure, that's my point, there is no general purpose influence skill other than Diplomacy.

I think we are talking past each other. My point is that passive interactions are best done by Reaction Rolls.

[Lord Carnifex]

I've used an IQ-Easy skill I call Charm in games before. It works more or less like any other influence skill. Didn't seem to break the system any.

[Gizensha]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The guy who knows Savoir-Faire (High Society) is probably going to do well at impressing his boss, his girlfriend's dad, or when introducing himself to new colleagues. Or, at least, he'll prevent hostility.

I'd hardly call most managers, most relations of prospective dates and most colleagues, 'high society' - The context of the (High Society) specialty seems very clear that it's the upper (and possibly upper-middle) classes, heavily implied by it mutually defaulting to Savoir Fair (Servants) at -2 (i.e. It's for the sort of person who is likely to have servants, socializing in the situation of a formal dinner party, up to and including the Queen's Garden Party. Bertie Wooster has Savoir Fair (High Society), Joe Blogs Down The Pub has, and is using, something else (Likely Streetwise, if it's a rough enough pub, but probably not)

For impressing a boss or getting along with colleagues I'd probably go with a 'corporate' specialization (if an equivalent doesn't already exist or it's more likely to want another; can't be bothered looking the specialties that already exist up), for impressing a suitor's parents it's something else...

...Social Engineering can't come fast enough, it seems... (Not because I think you are necessarily wrong, but because this debate is happening at all suggests that some amount of clarification would be useful)

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Carousing's weird. On the one hand, it certainly seems to be exactly as you describe (why else would it use HT?) but on the other hand, it seems to show up in an awful lot of templates as a "socializing" skill, ie the sort of skill one would use to gossip at snooty parties as well as party hard at a frat.

It could certainly stand a rewrite, I've been using this one:

Carousing (IQ/Easy) Default: IQ-4, Savoir Faire -4
This is the skill of socializing and partying. Carousing covers proper behavior at parties, in bars, brothels, gaming halls, orgies, or symposia; including a variety of setting-and-class specific skills, such as costumes, singing and dancing appropriate to your social status.
You may roll against Carousing to be entertaining in social settings, to tell good jokes or anecdotes, to compose suitable flattery, to deliver an acceptable pick up line, to get a date (with certain types of people, at least), pick entertaining party themes, find sources for decorations, host a party, plan a menu or wine list, or play master of ceremonies.
Carousing can often be used as an Influence skill to obtain a Good reaction for a request for aid or information, or for a general reaction. A failed roll means you embarrased yourself, producing a Bad reaction.
HT based Carousing rolls may be called for to know when to stop drinking (or taking some other drug), or to avoid being offensive while high, but this is a fairly minor component of the skill. Not all parties involve drugs.
This is a social skill, modifiers for Charisma, Odious Habits, Shyness and the like apply.

[pawsplay]

I'd call this simply Savoire-Faire. At a certain level of refinement, everyone is expected to be able to pour tea. Now, to be a real Tea Expert master, you would probably want to pair it up with Meditation (Tea Ceremony), Professional Skill (Tea Preparation), and Perk: Schtick (Exquisite Tea Ceremony). Tea Ceremony should probably be treated more like a martial art than a unitary skill.