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Old 05-29-2015, 10:41 AM   #31
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Default Re: Deference Issues!

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Thinking about it, we may defer more to wealth in the future, especially on corporate space stations where the rich control the very air we breathe, and own the metal and plastic that holds that air in.

Even on Earth, there's the depressing fact that many people like the Koch brothers are inclined to support laws that defang the various methods the poor have to stop the rich from abusing them, like class-action suits, or unions (though the latter is fortunately hanging on tight, through long experience - even if a lot of unions are depressingly corrupt).
Perhaps this is why Infosocialism came up. Conventional Marxism, highjacked by the Leninists in the early 20th century is basically dead. Infosocialism is a warped mess but it fills the void left by the collapse of Leninism and the erasure of Marx.
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:40 PM   #32
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Default Re: Deference Issues!

I'm posting on this thread again because I think this thread speaks to something vital about THS. It assumes changes in how we see the meaning of being human and that changes of that sort would be reflected in changes in society and matterial culture. The book Toxic Memes even discribes technologies designed to promote new systems of status and deference. The idea of and electronic scoreboard were people can like or dislike you or your actions in real time as if you were a blog post hardly even seems like Sci Fi. But it has real possibilities of transforming societies. Just look how our crude and limited social media of today are shaking up society.

A setting like THS, were social media and society's responce to it are vastly more complex would be radically different. Not to mention that even the most conservative takes on this setting's advanced and potent Memetic Science and how that would transform all aspects of human social interaction.

Looking at how something as basic as defference would be changed and how that would shift power around in the system would be a good start for figuring out how to play in this alien social environment.
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Old 06-23-2019, 11:01 PM   #33
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Default Re: Deference Issues!

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But anyway, it's not a cultural thing, but a darwinian thing. Drop billionaires in a highly egalitarian society where politicians listen "to everyone" and in a few generations, the wealthy will have the government in their pocket again, because politicians who accept bribes will always be more powerful than politicians who don't, to be somewhat crass about it, and the more powerful individuals will tend to defeat the less powerful ones. You can certainly build the system so this effect isn't necessarily so corrosive, and we've done a lot to do that (hence why we're not a naked oligarchy like Russia), but I don't think you can ever remove it completely.
For a counterpoint, look up the Iron Law of Oligarchy, as defined by Robert Michels, a labor activist in Germany's social democratic movement in the early 20th century. Michels pointed out that in the socialist trade union movement, the people who were highly motivated and politically skilled got into positions of leadership that they could then turn to their advantage, including but not limited to economic advantage, while the nominally democratic membership steadily lost its voice. This wasn't because the labor leaders were selling out to the capitalists; it was because organizations naturally evolve to pursue internal goals (the convenience and privilege of their Top Men) at the expense of external (serving the needs of their clientele).
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:22 AM   #34
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Default Re: Deference Issues!

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For a counterpoint, look up the Iron Law of Oligarchy, as defined by Robert Michels, a labor activist in Germany's social democratic movement in the early 20th century. Michels pointed out that in the socialist trade union movement, the people who were highly motivated and politically skilled got into positions of leadership that they could then turn to their advantage, including but not limited to economic advantage, while the nominally democratic membership steadily lost its voice. This wasn't because the labor leaders were selling out to the capitalists; it was because organizations naturally evolve to pursue internal goals (the convenience and privilege of their Top Men) at the expense of external (serving the needs of their clientele).
A threat in any hierarchical system. But it is established in Toxic Memes that the new systems of ranking people online were meant to counteract that.

Of course gaming the system would be a lively rogues campaign.
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