Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-17-2015, 04:15 PM   #51
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

There is also a "game balance" issue. People forget that while their archer is sitting back delivering slower attacks and less damage that they are not getting hurt while they do so. Archers want to have all of the benefits of a melee character with none of the risks. If they want to be as effective as a melee character then get up close and suffer all of the downsides that go with it. Archers tend to forget that the reason why they can sit back and shoot with impunity is because of the other people standing between them and the enemy getting hurt instead.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.

Last edited by DanHoward; 07-17-2015 at 04:24 PM.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 04:29 PM   #52
ErhnamDJ
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Archers tend to forget that the reason why they can sit back and shoot with impunity is because of the other people standing between them and the enemy getting hurt instead.
I think people are just more accustomed to thinking of firearms and bows slot into that same role in their minds.
__________________
"For the rays, to speak properly, are not colored. In them there is nothing else than a certain power and disposition to stir up a sensation of this or that color." —Isaac Newton, Optics

My blog.
ErhnamDJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 04:43 PM   #53
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Using the two 150 point character I quoted before again starting at the 200 yards you specified.

Given they both have the same basic speed but the swords-person has a slightly higher DX the will go first

Turn 1:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre close 6 yards. Distance 194 yds
Archer: Fast-draws(arrow)-14 then nocks and draws the bow with a Ready Manoeuvre, uses their Step to step back. Distance 195 yds
Turn 2:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre now sprinting at 7 yd/s. Distance 188 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 189 yards
Turn 3:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 182 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 183 yards
Turn 4:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 176 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 177 yards
Turn 5:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 170 yds
Archer: All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -12 range (speed no effect either because you can ignore it when both are humans on foot or because the fighter is moving directly towards the archer) - 3 (Hit location Vitals)
Effective Skill 9. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 35.6% * (100% - 62.5%) = 15.25% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (50% - 37.5%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit

now a 1d+5(2) pi Fine Bokken arrow vs Scale Torso Armor (DR 4)
Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 15.25% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 3.2784375 injury [note if the damage comes from the vital that will be a minim of 12 points injury vs 15 HP so will be a major wound and 33.3% chance that the torso hit would be major wound.]
Archer fast draws another Arrow
Turn 6:
Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP but high pain tolerance ignores any shock and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 163 yds
Archer: Uses Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 164 yds
Turn 7:
Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 157 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 158 yds
Turn 8:
Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 151 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 152 yards
Turn 9:
Swords person: expected ~ at 11.7215625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 145 yds
Archer: Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 146 yards
Turn 10:
Swords-person: Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 139 yds
Archer: All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals)
Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 62.5%) = 19.9375% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit
Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 19.9375% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 4.1925 injury
Archer fast draws another Arrow
Turn 11:
Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP (slightly over 1/2 HP) but high pain tolerance ignores any shock and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 139 yds
Archer: User Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 140 yds
Turn 12:
Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 133 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 134 yds
Turn 13:
Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 127 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 128 yds
Turn 14:
Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 121 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 122 yds
Turn 15:
Swords person: expected ~ at 7.5290625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre closing 7 yards. Distance 115 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 122 yds
Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals)
Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 11. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 62.5%) = 19.9375% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 62.5%) = 4.6875% Torso Hit
Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 19.9375% + 6.5 * 1 * 4.6875% = 4.1925 injury
Archer fast draws another Arrow
Turn 16:
Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP (this is below 1/3 HP) but high pain tolerance ignores any shock But move is reduced to 3, and Dodge 4 and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards FP reduced by 1 to FP 11 for sprinting for 15 seconds. Distance 118 yds
Archer: User Ready to nock and draw the arrow, and steps back. Distance 119 yds
Turn 17:
Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 115 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 116 yds
Turn 18:
Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 112 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 113 yds
Turn 19:
Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 109 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 110 yds
Turn 20:
Swords person: expected ~ at 3.3365625 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 106 yds
Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -11 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals)
Realising their desperate plight the swords person user Feverish Defence for -1 FP and +2 to active defence
Effective Skill 10. vs Block of 13. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 48.1% * (100% - 83.8%) = 9.6922% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (62.5% - 50%) * (100% - 83.8%) = 2.025% Torso Hit
Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 9.6922% + 6.5 * 1 * 2.025% = 2.021604 injury
Archer fast draws another Arrow
Turn 21:
Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards and FP 10. Distance 102 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to get their +Acc Bonus of 3 from the composite long bow, uses their Step to step back. Distance 103 yds
Turn 22:
Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 98 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +1 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 99 yds
Turn 23:
Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 95 yds
Archer: Uses Aim Manoeuvre to add +2 Aiming, uses their Step to step back. Distance 96 yds
Turn 24:
Swords person: expected ~ at 1.3149585 HP and Uses the Move Manoeuvre to continue sprinting closing 4 yards. Distance 92 yds
Archer: Uses All Out-Attack (Determine) Bow-18 + 3 Acc + 2 Aim + 1 determine + 1 weapon bond -10 range - 3 (Hit location Vitals)
Realising their desperate plight the swords person user Feverish Defence for -1 FP and +2 to active defence
Effective Skill 11. vs Block of 13. P(critical) + P(Normal Hit|Not Blocked) = 1.9% + 60.6% * (100% - 83.8%) = 11.7172% of a Vitals Hit plus a Miss by 1 = (74.1% - 62.5%) * (100% - 83.8%) = 1.8792% Torso Hit
Expected injury = 6.5 * 3 * 11.7172% + 6.5 * 1 * 1.8792% = 2.407002 injury
Archer fast draws another Arrow

now the Swords person is expect to below zero hp and is rolling just to stay couscous 92 yards away from the archer.

[ack its worse than that because the swords person is farther away because I forgot to factor in the fact he's lightly encumbered!]
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:07 PM   #54
Humabout
 
Humabout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
6 feet away? 6 feet away? Who that doesn't suffer from a serious nerve disorder cannot hit a man sized target from 6 feet away even if under excited pressure?
I can do that and there's no way I'm using anything other than default from a not so nice Dexterity score.
Can you? You've hit an actively evading target who is bent on murdering you in the face, while dodging his long spear thrusts? I'm truly impressed! If you are talking about target shooting, you might refer to the box on Tactical Shooting, p. 9. A +10 to skill makes it hard not to miss at 6 feet...if you aren't in combat.
__________________
Buy My Stuff!

Free Stuff:
Dungeon Action!
Totem Spirits

My Blog: Above the Flatline.
Humabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:09 PM   #55
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

The 6ft bowshot is not something I've seen happening in LARPing, 6ft is to close really, they can reach out and hit your bow
Kalzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:33 PM   #56
Unwashed Mass
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Playing an archer really depends on what kind of game you're playing.

In a realistic game, archers will tend to be secondary rank fighters that depend on others to protect them while they shoot. Or even use skills as camouflage and stealth to act as snipers.

On the other end is the more cinematic Dungeon Fantasy, where Scouts can wreck havoc with a game. The potential is there for killing a foe a round with one, or two, arrows a round or so.

I personally built an Ogre Scout. Terrifying amount of damage every round.
Unwashed Mass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:35 PM   #57
Noctifer
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Kernersville, NC
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Using the two 150 point character I quoted before again starting at the 200 yards you specified.

[snip]
You guys rule, thank you so much!!
Noctifer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:43 PM   #58
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

It should be noted that the general desirable non cinematic things for archers are the same general desirable non cinematic things for meleeists, you want to be strong and have some DX

So, nothing prevents Mr Archer from becoming Mr Meleeist when the time comes, they are both lenses on the general purpose Fighter chassis
Kalzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:52 PM   #59
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
There is also a "game balance" issue. People forget that while their archer is sitting back delivering slower attacks and less damage that they are not getting hurt while they do so. Archers want to have all of the benefits of a melee character with none of the risks. If they want to be as effective as a melee character then get up close and suffer all of the downsides that go with it. Archers tend to forget that the reason why they can sit back and shoot with impunity is because of the other people standing between them and the enemy getting hurt instead.
From a party perspective, the value of that has always struck me as fairly small. The blows that the back rank isn't taking aren't being negated, they're just being concentrated on the front line fighters. It lets you optimize a little by not investing in defenses for them, if you're willing to take the risks that entails, but...

If you can make a melee fighter who could stand in the front rank and simultaneously diffuse enemy attacks and do damage faster than the archer can, the back rank benefit isn't doing the group any favors. And you can do that if you're running a party of equal PCs.

Back-ranking is probably beneficial for hirelings and sidekicks, who can deliver supplemental firepower without needing to defend themselves against enemies matched outside their weight class. Maybe it's useful for mages, who can do enough with the points saved by not having front-line toughness to be worth it. For archer PCs...they need something more to pull their weight.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2015, 05:57 PM   #60
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: [Combat]: Do you bow, bro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Using the two 150 point character I quoted before again starting at the 200 yards you specified.
That is, of course, significantly cinematic and a-historic. Historical fighting bows probably involved speeds of less than 200 fps, which means a 200 yard shot is a flight time of about 3s. Predicting the position of a running human 3s in advance, particularly if the running human knows that someone is shooting at him, is going to be a crapshoot at best. If visibility is good, he may be able to see your arrows and predict their trajectory by enough to deliberately dodge them, which will make hitting nearly impossible.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bow

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.