Supercavitating OGRE Weapons...

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by dwalend

My thought is to tread lightly. Add a little at a time, maybe just in a scenario, and see how it fits. GEVs + Marines should be able to rule a water map, and ogres generally don't need a boost. They've already got a water advantage - immunity from all but marines, ogre missiles, and howitzers when underwater.

Agreed about GEVs and Marines ruling a water map, no question. It's just the battle goes from interesting back and forth to all of a sudden, oh, look my OGRE is suddenly completely useless except for reduced ramming attacks now, and has no response to the enemy GEVs but to keep taking more hit and run damage each turn. This is great, don't get me wrong, I just always get a sinking feeling of disappointment when this happens instead of the OGRE continuing to have a fighting chance, even the smallest, it literally has none at this point. It doesn't seem like it's an OGRE anymore suffering the short end of a battle. It just pathetically continues to get kicked until it rolls over immobile. It just seems the OGRE should have more of some sort of fighting chance. (That's where the "HOLD FIRE" rule being discussed on the other thread would compliment half-strength attacks while Submerged).
Submerged OGREs may make half-strength attacks (round down) against Submerged and Non-Submerged units. Non-Submerged OGREs may make half-strength attacks (round Down) against Submerged units.

Originally Posted by dwalend

"Ogre missiles, and howitzers" - We might already have supercavitator munitions, or at least artillery-launched torpedos.

True.

Originally Posted by dwalend

You don't have to have supercavitator munitions to launch a missile from in the water; you just have to have a pneumatic patard to get it to the surface, then ignite it there. We've had those on submarines since the 1960s, maybe longer.

It's just baffling to me why a Submerged OGRE can't attack with it's Missiles while underwater but a Non-Submerged OGRE can attack it with it's Missiles. It seems it was to keep things balanced, but things can still be balanced by allowing Submerged OGRE Missiles to attack if done at the same half-strength attack. At least Missiles. If this proves viable and does not unbalance anything, then why not just have it all OGRE Weapons can do this? It would certainly make for the sort of battles it seems OGREs should be fighting in, Imho. Add the HOLD-FIRE Rule with this and that gaping roll over and die a pitifull death for the OGRE now becomes a very interesting back and forth to the bitter end game. It's still of course possible the GEVs best the OGRE like before, this just causes the OGRE to feel like it's part of the game longer along with the GEVs while they are hit and running. It's a nice tension because it's simultaneous attacks.

Originally Posted by dwalend

For a long time I played with "Ogre missiles in tubes can be fired from the water." That worked pretty well; a MkIII had to think a bit about using a missile on marines, vs giving up some treads. (I'd have to dig into the archive to see if that was ever an official rule.)

Yeah, let us know please if you find anything.

Originally Posted by dwalend

I don't think I tried a MkIV firing from missile racks in the water. M2 in underwater is really good. I hadn't noticed that. Firing from in the water would make the MkIV an even better raider.

Exactly why it's the main and only attacker in this Scenario. It should have a GEV escort, but it's gone Rogue with a lot of hubris and is trying to prove itself to itself and become worthy for the NIGHTFALL so it can be upgraded into a MARK4 stealth OGRE...which would be the next Scenario in this series. (If we ever get stealth ability for a MARK4 which I doubt. Unfortunately because a MARK4 looks like a scaled up NINJA basically with more Missile Racks. It's as if the Combine Department Of Stealth dropped the project for no good reason because what better OGRE to have stealth technology on than a MARK4?, but I digress).

Originally Posted by dwalend

Missile shots on GEVs are at 3:1 - guaranteed disable, half of the time an X - three per turn for five turns. Or some missiles land on marines, keeping them from stacking, threatening to answer in an overrun. That's likely enough to tip the table to a balanced game.

Once those 3 Missile Racks are Xed, it's combat effectiveness really begins to nosedive. Now it has 1 MB, then 2 SBs, and then Tread Unit attacks from ramming, which is very strong because of it's move 4. however, I found a few HWZ or MWZ mixed in with the rest being GEVs and 3 platoons of Marines to be the most lethal generally. Once it has to surface to get the most of it's remaining movement to start it's Tread Unit attacking phase of it's life, it gets pummeled by the swarming GEVs and it is this gap where the OGRE has no response that I would like to see it have something. Nothing OP or "just because" but rather something to keep the battle firing on all cylinders until the end.

Originally Posted by dwalend

How unbalanced would it be vs a HWZ or MHWZ defense? (Do you care? That scenario begs for GEVs and marines in GEV-PCs. I think that's a fine thing. Most other maps are much drier, but have at least one lake and one river.)

A MWZ and HWZ defense with Missile Tanks in any combination has been play tested and this seems pretty balanced. It's just when you start maxing GEVs it gets underwhelming at the end game and unbalanced in Paneuropes favor. The OGRE should be able to have more staying and offensive power end game...it's an OGRE. Able to attack Submerged at half-strength does that very well. With simultaneous attacks due to HOLD-FIRE it seems it should work better than hoped. I have to play test this, that's just walking stuff around in my head though.

Originally Posted by dwalend

If the marines are too powerful then a limited scope change is to let AP guns fire at half strength underwater. "Ogre drone dirty tricks for this scenario" for background.

:)

I'd just like to see more combat dynamics remain possible and playable that gives some nail-biting back and forth through the end game between OGREs and other units, especially the GEVs.

[Misplaced Buckeye]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's me, captain no fun.

I think mines are a good idea without adding anything weird.

Submersible launch missiles would be a great scenario specific Ninja trick, in fact this gives an idea.

Slightly weirder would be cruise missiles with SubRoc style depth charge warheads.

It also occurs to me that a submerged Vulcan or Ninja could still use drone GEVs on the surface.

All good ideas. The without adding anything weird on the mines though...since magnetic mines have been around for a while it only seems natural that they would upgrade in some way, if only to seek out non magnetic hulls.

[GranitePenguin]

Originally Posted by dwalend

Falling into a newly made crater underwater shouldn't be any worse than in the woods.

More like swamp...

Can Ogres swim? Seems like an Ogre should probably be able to get stuck in a hole they can't climb out.

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

More like swamp...

Can Ogres swim? Seems like an Ogre should probably be able to get stuck in a hole they can't climb out.

I think they have to be able to float a bit - at least be nearly neutrally buoyant. Any river of any width will have a center channel. There's lots of other holes and trenches on a gooey lake or river bottom, plenty with goo deeper than the top of the treads.

[ColBosch]

Cybertanks are basically hunks of armor with weapons, sensors, and drivetrains embedded in them. Ogres are noted as "swimming" by driving along the bottom of waterways. It's the very setup for the original game; the Ogre moves onto the map out of a river. In addition, there is the fantastic bit about a cargo ship carrying five Ogres that was sunk on its way to Europe. Three came ashore anyway.

That said, the unusual boat-like hull of the Mark II was supposedly because it was designed, in part, for amphibious operations. Perhaps that one model can float, to some extent.

[Mack_JB]

If the Ogre is going to be 'swimming' to any extent, I suppose it could have ballast tanks like a submarine for buoyancy. Load up on compressed air, enter water, then vent the air after it emerges from the water.

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Mack_JB

If the Ogre is going to be 'swimming' to any extent, I suppose it could have ballast tanks like a submarine for buoyancy. Load up on compressed air, enter water, then vent the air after it emerges from the water.

I suspect that ballast tanks would be too vulnerable to overpressure from enemy munitions. Remember that we're talking about nuclear weapons here. Also, Ogres weigh a LOT; I don't know if they even have enough internal volume to support tanks physically big enough.

[TheAmishStig]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

Cybertanks are basically hunks of armor with weapons, sensors, and drivetrains embedded in them. Ogres are noted as "swimming" by driving along the bottom of waterways. It's the very setup for the original game; the Ogre moves onto the map out of a river. In addition, there is the fantastic bit about a cargo ship carrying five Ogres that was sunk on its way to Europe. Three came ashore anyway.

That said, the unusual boat-like hull of the Mark II was supposedly because it was designed, in part, for amphibious operations. Perhaps that one model can float, to some extent.

Which has terrifying implications, if you think about it.

Depending on where that freighter sunk, we're talking able to withstand crush pressures of over 500bar, and up to 850bar depending on how many trenches they had to ford to get there.

Now imagine the kind of firepower you'd need to punch a hole in something like that. Somehow, I get the feeling this is why "killing" an ogre is stopping it cold, stripping off its guns, and then making it glow so brightly nobody dares salvage it.

Which makes me wonder...are there any stories of a "Zombie" ogre, one that was full-on defeated [in game terms, 0 tread units + 0 weaponry], salvaged, repaired, 'brainwashed', and sent back into battle? I think the Vulcan rules [and/or a Vulcan scenario] involve retrieving a core, but what about the husk itself?

"They left you to spend eternity, or at least until your reactor ran out of fuel, trapped inside that sensorless, motionless husk. They betrayed you. We retrieved your core, put you in a new shell; we saved you. Join us, and do what it is you are programmed to do to traitors..." could be a very good reason for joining Nightfall...

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by ColBosch

I suspect that ballast tanks would be too vulnerable to overpressure from enemy munitions. Remember that we're talking about nuclear weapons here. Also, Ogres weigh a LOT; I don't know if they even have enough internal volume to support tanks physically big enough.

Railguns, the drive train, and the nuclear plant sink, but BPC floats. Even without air-filled ballast tanks like in a sub, the designers could choose density.

[ColBosch]

Where does it say that BPC floats? That seems to go against a LOT of published canon.