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Old 01-12-2018, 02:16 PM   #1
tbeard1999
 
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Default Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I have very few criticisms of Ogre/GEV. They have to be ranked as nearly perfect tactical wargames - engaging, fast playing, simple and elegant. There is, however, one very minor complaint - no opportunity or overwatch mechanic. This is not a big problem, since (a) the movement allowances and ranges are small; and (b) line of sight isn't required (which avoids the panzerbush problem). However, there are some odd situations that can develop, particularly with GEVs. These problems generally occur more when playing games with non-Ogres on both sides.

Examples:

1. GEV is 6 hexes away from light tank. It moves 4 hexes closer and shoots at the light tank. It then moves 3 hexes back. The light tank can't shoot back unless it moves 3 hexes closer. And if the terrain won't cooperate, the light tank won't be able to get within range of the GEV.

2. Enemy GEV on water hex ends its movement 3 hexes from friendly light tank. Friendly light tank is occupying a key piece of terrain. At this point, friendly light tank is well out of range. Water prevents it from closing the distance. On the next turn, enemy GEV moves 2 hexes and attacks friendly light tank.

3. Enemy light tank ends movement 5 hexes from friendly light tank. Friendly light tank is occupying a key piece of terrain. At this point, friendly light tank is well out of range. On the next turn, enemy light moves 3 hexes and attacks friendly light tank. Friendly light tank could only avoid this if it gave up its position and moved towards (or away from) the enemy light tank.

Despite being in position and waiting for the enemy, each of the non-moving tanks either had to give up their position or let the enemy shoot first.

While this gives Ogre/GEV a certain chess-like quality, it's wholly artificial. In my own Fistful of TOWs 3 rules, I have two solutions to the problem:

The first is Overwatch. If a stand does not move and is eligible to fire, it can take an Overwatch marker instead of firing. This allows it to fire before, during or immediately after the enemy's next movement phase. If the overwatch stand fires before or after the enemy movement phase, the attack is handled normally. If it fires during the enemy movement phase, a negative modifier is applied. (This discourages players from slowing the game down by taking gratuitous Overwatch shots while the enemy is moving).

The second is Hold Fire. If a stand does move and is eligible to fire it can take a Hold Fire marker instead of firing. This allows it to fire during the enemy fire phase, with results being applied simultaneously. In Ogre/GEV, the best approach would be to conduct all Hold Fire, then let the phasing player fire and apply results. Then apply the Hold Fire results.

I don't think that Ogre/GEV would benefit much from the Overwatch rule. As noted, there is no line of sight issue and Overwatch mostly addresses "panzerbushing".

However, the Hold Fire rule might be worth trying. In the above examples, the attacking unit would still get to fire, but it would be potentially vulnerable to counterattack without the enemy having to give up its position. You could come close to a true overwatch mechanic by letting the non-moving stands fire fire first and immediately apply the results. But I wouldn't do that. I'd like to encourage aggressive play.

Just a thought.

Last edited by tbeard1999; 01-12-2018 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Additional Comment
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:45 PM   #2
GranitePenguin
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
These problems generally occur more when playing games with non-Ogres on both sides.
I'm not sure I agree that these problems exist.

Quote:
1. GEV is 6 hexes away from light tank. It moves 4 hexes closer and shoots at the light tank. It then moves 3 hexes back. The light tank can't shoot back unless it moves 3 hexes closer. And if the terrain won't cooperate, the light tank won't be able to get within range of the GEV.
This is a phantom issue. It relies on "the terrain not cooperating" but in your example, there are few places the GEV can retreat to that the LT can't follow. About the only example is if a stream is in the way, but the LT is most likely out of position if this happens. Besides, the whole point of a GEV is that it's able to do exactly this; they are supposed to be fast strike-and-retreat units.

Quote:
2. Enemy GEV on water hex ends its movement 3 hexes from friendly light tank. Friendly light tank is occupying a key piece of terrain. At this point, friendly light tank is well out of range. Water prevents it from closing the distance. On the next turn, enemy GEV moves 2 hexes and attacks friendly light tank.
You haven't given a clear enough description of where the units are relative to the edge of the water. Don't forget that GEVs must stop at the edge of the water in current rules. If the GEV is far enough into the water that the LT can't reach it, it's also not on the water's edge and can't advance close enough to attack.

Quote:
3. Enemy light tank ends movement 5 hexes from friendly light tank. Friendly light tank is occupying a key piece of terrain. At this point, friendly light tank is well out of range. On the next turn, enemy light moves 3 hexes and attacks friendly light tank. Friendly light tank could only avoid this if it gave up its position and moved towards (or away from) the enemy light tank.

Despite being in position and waiting for the enemy, each of the non-moving tanks either had to give up their position or let the enemy shoot first.

While this gives Ogre/GEV a certain chess-like quality, it's wholly artificial.
That's what makes the game interesting. The positioning is the hallmark of why the game is good; it's supposed to be hard to get the first shot. You have to decide if you want to hold the position or advance; that's the whole point. This example also presumes single units, which is rarely the right tactical move in G.E.V. This issue is nullified by bringing a different tactic to the board (flanking, numbers, etc). I don't see this as a problem, or artificial.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

It seems like it would just add complexity, for the occasional ability of the 'defender' to get first reaction fire in. Might as well then add LOS rules, and Morale, and from there Supply ... in which case, then I'd just play ASL.

Ogre/GEV is meant to be fast and deadly ...
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
It seems like it would just add complexity, for the occasional ability of the 'defender' to get first reaction fire in. Might as well then add LOS rules, and Morale, and from there Supply ... in which case, then I'd just play ASL.

Ogre/GEV is meant to be fast and deadly ...
At roughly the scale of Ogre, I still unhesitantly recommend Tac-Air, if you can find a copy.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:56 PM   #5
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
It seems like it would just add complexity, for the occasional ability of the 'defender' to get first reaction fire in. Might as well then add LOS rules, and Morale, and from there Supply ... in which case, then I'd just play ASL.

Ogre/GEV is meant to be fast and deadly ...
I don’t think that one very simple rule change turns GEV into ASL. And line of sight is explicitly contraindicated by the future history - the rules specifically state that the AFVs are armed with non-line of sight weapons. So it’s not necessary to go there.

Anyhow, the hold fire suggestion was the simplest way I could think of to address my friend’s concerns. And now mine, since I feel like I beat him with gamesmanship, not superior tactical ability.

Also, the Hold Fire rule as proposed doesn’t give the non-moving player the first shot. And since the unit using Hold Fire foregoes his attack in his turn, it won’t be used except for meeting engagements. Once the units get “stuck in”, Hold Fire will likely rarely be used.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack_JB View Post
It seems like it would just add complexity, for the occasional ability of the 'defender' to get first reaction fire in. Might as well then add LOS rules, and Morale, and from there Supply ... in which case, then I'd just play ASL.

Ogre/GEV is meant to be fast and deadly ...
Personally I like the ECM factor thrown in occasionally to force an LOS factor into the scenario.
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Old 01-15-2018, 08:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

For those who have the OGRE Miniatures book (or the pdf nowadays) you know that they put in all sorts of LOS rules. Heck, in the playtest version there were even rules for firing arcs and what sections of an Ogre could be damaged depending on your firing position.

Frankly, much as I liked Ogre Miniatures (the book was beautiful and set the bar for miniature books to emulate for years to come) I simply didn't like all the additional rules. This is why I prefer the hex-based game.

And I KNOW that sounds a tad hypocritical coming from the co-inventor of "OGRE Macrotures" back in the '90s (for those of you with memories of GEN-Con and a few DragonCons from 15 to 25 years ago.)
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:05 AM   #8
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

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Originally Posted by CON_Troll View Post
For those who have the OGRE Miniatures book (or the pdf nowadays) you know that they put in all sorts of LOS rules. Heck, in the playtest version there were even rules for firing arcs and what sections of an Ogre could be damaged depending on your firing position.

Frankly, much as I liked Ogre Miniatures (the book was beautiful and set the bar for miniature books to emulate for years to come) I simply didn't like all the additional rules. This is why I prefer the hex-based game.

And I KNOW that sounds a tad hypocritical coming from the co-inventor of "OGRE Macrotures" back in the '90s (for those of you with memories of GEN-Con and a few DragonCons from 15 to 25 years ago.)
Yeah, I didn’t like the line of sight rules in Ogre Miniatures either. At that point, the lack of any kind of opportunity fire system makes the game too abstract for me to enjoy. In addition, they flatly contradicted the established background. And as I recall, the line of sight rules dealt only with elevation and not terrain. If I’m remembering correctly, that’s bizarre.

I never saw the Macrotures but man they looked like something I’d want...
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

I do see it as kind of artificial, but deliberate, especially considering GEV split movement. Allowing attacks of opportunity drastically changes the dynamic between treaded armor and hovercraft, to the point of throwing the entire system into confusion. Think about how much more powerful this makes Ogres. The usual tactic for using GEVs against cybertanks is in a series of slashing attacks: move a group close in the first movement phase, make attacks in the firing phase, then scatter in the GEV second movement phase. The Ogre player has to make a decision between grinding for the CP or trying to run down some of the GEVs. If the Ogre can instead hold its fire then it can devastate the GEVs as soon as they come into range, eliminating their entire special game mechanic.

Remember that Ogre/GEV is not meant to be a realistic simulation, just a fun game. Sometimes things will happen that might not make real-world sense.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #10
tbeard1999
 
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Default Re: Hold Fire in Ogre/GEV

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I do see it as kind of artificial, but deliberate, especially considering GEV split movement. Allowing attacks of opportunity drastically changes the dynamic between treaded armor and hovercraft, to the point of throwing the entire system into confusion. Think about how much more powerful this makes Ogres. The usual tactic for using GEVs against cybertanks is in a series of slashing attacks: move a group close in the first movement phase, make attacks in the firing phase, then scatter in the GEV second movement phase. The Ogre player has to make a decision between grinding for the CP or trying to run down some of the GEVs. If the Ogre can instead hold its fire then it can devastate the GEVs as soon as they come into range, eliminating their entire special game mechanic.

Remember that Ogre/GEV is not meant to be a realistic simulation, just a fun game. Sometimes things will happen that might not make real-world sense.
No question about it. I would not add Hold Fire, except as an optional rule. And I wouldn’t use it in a game of Ogre. The issues - assuming agreement that they are issues - arise when you have lots of non-Ogres on both sides.
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