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Old 05-27-2010, 02:02 PM   #1
Jeminai
 
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Default Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

When I read Weapon Master I see very distinct things that one gets for paying the initial 20 points (one weapon option). The higher point costs give the same things but for larger weapon groups.

1: Extra damage
2: Decreased penalties to multiple parries
3: Decreased penalties to rapid strike
4: Access to Cinematic Skills that require Weapon Master

When using a bow however, damage is limited by the legth of the arrow (or draw length), you don't parry with a bow and even in the best of cases (heroic archer) you get to fire once per second.

So, this leaves access to cinematic skills as the only thing that a weapon master with a bow actually uses. Shouldn't he get a reduced cost?

In my gaming group we discussed this at length and the following question about Weapon Master came up as well:

Is it possible to learn Weapon Master during play and to show that by purchasing each "portion" of the advantage as they learn it for 5 points each.

This way they can be putting in time with the Weapon Master they travel with, record their hours of training and actually see some benefits as they go along, instead of all at one shot when they have put the time and points in. In other words, as of today the character has completed hours of training necessary and dumps his points into WM that he has been saving. He now has all these benefits that he did not have yesterday.

By breaking it up, the character was able to get some benefits as he went along and it better shows the learning process. Now that I am writing about it, maybe the same thing could apply to Trained By a Master.

[Just to clarify one part. If players are willing to do the work of actually recording their hours and making it a point to work at earning a skill or advantage, I sometimes let them put in half the time and pay the other half with unspent points. In the WM example the character actually recorded the 2000 hours (@ 200 hours per point) and fit it in around travelling, and camp time and when he told me he hit the 2000 hour mark I told him he could spend 10 saved character points and buy Weapon Master.]

Thoughts?
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Old 05-27-2010, 02:03 PM   #2
Icelander
 
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Weapon Masters (Bow) get increased damage. Why wouldn't they?

It's a cinematic advantage and has nothing to do with physics.

Plus, you know, Heroic Archer already includes access to the skills you are talking about. You would buy Weapon Master (Bows) only if you wanted the damage bonus (other effects are nice, but minor).

For a cinematic archer, I'd definitely consider it if I had the points budget. The damage bonus is by far the most useful aspect of Weapon Master and 4 levels of Arm ST (for a +2 damage) already cost 20 points.
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Old 05-27-2010, 02:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
When I read Weapon Master I see very distinct things that one gets for paying the initial 20 points (one weapon option). The higher point costs give the same things but for larger weapon groups.

1: Extra damage
2: Decreased penalties to multiple parries
3: Decreased penalties to rapid strike
4: Access to Cinematic Skills that require Weapon Master

When using a bow however, damage is limited by the legth of the arrow (or draw length), you don't parry with a bow and even in the best of cases (heroic archer) you get to fire once per second.

So, this leaves access to cinematic skills as the only thing that a weapon master with a bow actually uses. Shouldn't he get a reduced cost?
The only one of those that the bow user does not get is the multiple parries. He gets the bonus damage and the rapid strike cost cut.
Quote:
Is it possible to learn Weapon Master during play and to show that by purchasing each "portion" of the advantage as they learn it for 5 points each.
The sum of the parts does not equal the whole in that regard.
Quote:
This way they can be putting in time with the Weapon Master they travel with, record their hours of training and actually see some benefits as they go along, instead of all at one shot when they have put the time and points in. In other words, as of today the character has completed hours of training necessary and dumps his points into WM that he has been saving. He now has all these benefits that he did not have yesterday.
Weapon master does not necessarily require one to learn it from someone else.
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Old 05-27-2010, 02:50 PM   #4
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
1: Extra damage
...
When using a bow however, damage is limited by the legth of the arrow (or draw length), you don't parry with a bow and even in the best of cases (heroic archer) you get to fire once per second.
You can either take Icelander's advice, giving the bonus based on Cinematic Badassery (and justifying it however you'd like - using the bow to its full potential, hitting more damaging areas, enhancing the hit with chi, whatever), or you can say that Weapon Master makes you more efficient at using your muscles to pull back the bowstring, allowing you to use a much stronger bow than you ST would normally allow. For example, at ST 14 you do 1d thr. With skill at DX+2, Weapon Master would boost this to 1d+2 - which corresponds to ST 17-18. Thus, WM lets you use bows up to ST+4.

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Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
2: Decreased penalties to multiple parries
Generally no dice there, but if you already have an arrow loaded (or can do so as a free action) you could attempt a Ranged Parry (comparable to the characters from Wanted shooting enemy bullets, but with a bow). This is ridiculously cinematic, but I think the rules are in Gun Fu (don't have it, so can't say).

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Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
3: Decreased penalties to rapid strike
Heroic Archer halves the penalties for Rapid Shooting (or whatever the "load and shoot in one second" ability is called). Why not let WM: Bow halve them again (to -1)? That means the character with both Heroic Archer and WM: Bow can shoot at an effective RoF 3 by drawing and shooting 3 arrows in succession at nearly the same penalty (multiple rolls even out to effectively a penalty, and further Fast Draws are penalized) as a Heroic Archer can shoot at RoF 1.

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Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
4: Access to Cinematic Skills that require Weapon Master
Sadly, Heroic Archer already covers this. You could allow a few cinematic skills/Advantages to require WM and not Heroic Archer (or even require both together). Enhanced Dodge might work nicely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
Is it possible to learn Weapon Master during play and to show that by purchasing each "portion" of the advantage as they learn it for 5 points each.

This way they can be putting in time with the Weapon Master they travel with, record their hours of training and actually see some benefits as they go along, instead of all at one shot when they have put the time and points in. In other words, as of today the character has completed hours of training necessary and dumps his points into WM that he has been saving. He now has all these benefits that he did not have yesterday.
If you want to go this route, I'd take all the aspects and have each "level up" independently. Consider - at ST 14 and skill at DX+2 or higher, you are removing -3 of penalties from Rapid Strike, gaining +2 thrust damage and +4 swing damage, and removing -2/hit of multiple Parry penalties. You're also getting improved defaults (generally minor) and access to Cinematic goodness. Assuming the 20-point version, at 1/4 point total (5 CP) you gain +1 to swing damage (useless to a bow user, sadly). At 1/3 (7) you remove -1 of the Rapid Strike penalty. At 1/2 (10), you gain +1 to thrust damage, another +1 to swing damage, and remove -1 of the multiple Parry penalty. At 2/3 (13), you remove another -1 of the Rapid Strike penalty. at 3/4 (15), you gain another +1 to swing damage. Finally, at full (20), you remove another -1 to Rapid Strike and multiple Parries and gain another +1 to each of swing and thrust damage. For cinematic skills/Advantages, treat every 3 points investing in WM as a Special Exercises or Unusual Training Perk for getting access to one (at full, it's unlimited access).
Complicated, yes, but it's basically just turning WM into a leveled Advantage rather than a single one. It also prevents a munchkin from only taking what he likes at a significant discount. And, of course, the whole thing is fairly gradual, whereas it's a bit more abrupt if the characters buy each part in whole.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeminai View Post
When using a bow however, damage is limited by the legth of the arrow (or draw length),
No, Weapon Master definitely adds to bow damage. It's a cinematic advantage -- you do more damage because you're just that much better at attacking with a bow.

Quote:
you don't parry with a bow
True. This, in fact, is the only thing you "lose" when you take Weapon Master for a ranged weapon.

Quote:
and even in the best of cases (heroic archer) you get to fire once per second.
You're overlooking the fact that Weapon Master affects your Quick Shooting rolls! If you don't have Heroic Archer, it gives you +3 to effective skill for those rolls, and even if you do, it still gives you +2 (taking the penalty from -3 per shot to -1 per shot). So this is a wash -- your Quick Shooting is affected by WM in exactly the same way that multiple attacks with a melee weapon would be.

Quote:
So, this leaves access to cinematic skills as the only thing that a weapon master with a bow actually uses. Shouldn't he get a reduced cost?
No, you get improved damage, reduced penalties for quick shots, and access to cinematic skills. It's still well worth the 20 points.

Quote:
Is it possible to learn Weapon Master during play and to show that by purchasing each "portion" of the advantage as they learn it for 5 points each.
Sure. I'd let a player even "invest" one point at a time. But I wouldn't give any benefit until he'd spent at least 20 points.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:11 PM   #6
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Um are there not at least DF bows the can survive being used to parry ? as we have said it is a Cinematic advantage...
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:11 PM   #7
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Add to your list that Weapon Master (Bow) halves penalties for Multiple Fast-Draw (p. MA103). This is cumulative with the halving from Heroic Archer.
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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Sure. I'd let a player even "invest" one point at a time. But I wouldn't give any benefit until he'd spent at least 20 points.
If access to cinematic options is one goal you could take those as Unusual Training perks and then trade them in for Weapon Master later.

Or put limitations on Weapon Master like Limited Use for flashes of mastery, Costs Fatigue for mastery with effort, Preparation Required for mastery after meditation only, etc. -- that can then be worked off through final training/development.

Last edited by munin; 05-27-2010 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by munin View Post
Add to your list that Weapon Master (Bow) halves penalties for Multiple Fast-Draw (p. MA103). This is cumulative with the halving from Heroic Archer.
And then you have the Weapon Master (Bow) max out the Dual Weapon Attack technique, so your Archer Fast-Draws two arrows at a time and fires them two at a time.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:36 PM   #9
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
Um are there not at least DF bows the can survive being used to parry ? as we have said it is a Cinematic advantage...
Bow isn't a melee skill. You couldn't use it to parry with the bow even if the bow were suitable for parrying.

If you had a bizarre combo weapon that could be used as a bow and also as a melee weapon, you'd probably have to switch to the melee form before you could parry with it...you might be able to benefit from Weapon Master both ways, since I think WM is by weapon, not by skill.
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Old 05-27-2010, 03:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Weapon Master (Bow) and TBM

Quote:
Originally Posted by munin View Post
Or put limitations on Weapon Master like Limited Use for flashes of mastery, Costs Fatigue for mastery with effort, Preparation Required for mastery after meditation only, etc. -- that can then be worked off through final training/development.
My name is SuedodeuS and I approve this message.

You could even combine this with my above methodology, although that could get messy.
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