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Old 12-26-2018, 12:45 AM   #1
Xakaz
 
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Default [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

Preposition: my players found themselves involved in a classic tavern brawl. We used a hex-map, and, at some point it became rather difficult to manage massive close combat.

My questions:
1). How would you manage this situation in general?
2). Will all the participants (no matter, how many) end up in the same hex at some point?
3). If yes, then how to manage facings and availability of targets in this case?
4). If no, then how to represent a close combat in this case?

I've found this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=53231, and it provides good insight on how to manage three sides in a close combat (it's either front or rear), but I think it doesn't solves cases with more participants. And what if all of them are hostile to each other and might want to hit any other participant at some point?
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

To be more specific, here are some images:

1). https://imgur.com/a/CfNlNnM
On this image A is in close combat with B. A and B facing each other and can hit each other. No questions.
2). https://imgur.com/a/hPNEPgm
Here C is joined the fight and now at the rear to B. Can C hit A?
3). https://imgur.com/a/GcwEAmy
And now D enters the close combat. Whom he can hit? Is he at front of all of the fighters?

What if even more characters are want to join the fight?
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

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Originally Posted by Xakaz View Post
Preposition: my players found themselves involved in a classic tavern brawl. We used a hex-map, and, at some point it became rather difficult to manage massive close combat. (...)
You could take a look at this post. It might solve many of your questions.

There's also a GURPS book called "Mass Combat", but that's for larger scenarios than a hex.
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

Thanks, but it's not quite I'm looking for, the post you refer to is just about how many allies can stand in one hex and fight without penalties.

And I'd rather prefer to avoid using Mass Combat rules in this particular situation.
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xakaz View Post
To be more specific, here are some images: (...) What if even more characters are want to join the fight?
Since each hex roughly represents a square yard, how many people fit in a square yard? About four (as per the quote in my previous post regarding allies).

In all situations, foes can hit each other as long as they can reach their target. But you need to provide a disadvantage to hit depending on the target if there are obstructions.

In my opinion, your pictures do not show close combat in the strict sense. Because they (the targets/foes) are in different hexes. For close combat they should be on the same hex.

Situation 1: They can only kick each other.
Situation 2: A vs. B then A vs. C (kicks only).
Situation 3: A vs. B then A vs. C then A Vs. D, Then D vs. B (kicks only).

"Kicks only" because a kick has reach 1. Punches have reach C, but they require sharing the same hex.
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Old 12-26-2018, 02:09 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

Sorry for misleading pictures - I've used roughly the same size for "character tokens" as we use in our tabletop games. Of course, the whole point is those characters in the images are in close combat (the same hex).
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:26 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

One day I'll do what I keep wanting to do and tape down 1yd hexes on the floor during a martial arts practice and film the interaction from above. The studio we train in can do it, and we routinely use sword, knife, shortsword, one-handed axe, shield, spears of six to eight feet, and two-handed axes, which would get the reach thing.

Toss in a bit of unarmed striking and grappling, and I think it'd be illustrative.

For the point in "how many can be in a single hex," I'd guess that once you get more than one, things get decidedly cramped. Two is probably OK (and by normal GURPS rules, required for punching) if one assumes the target fades to the "rear" of their hex.

Try it: grab a yard or meter stick, and have two folks stand on each end. Even better, find a six-foot "bo" staff and look at where kick and punch distances are. Standing in a not-terribly-deep fighting stance for one person occupies most of the hex. Two can probably fit if they like each other a lot, or not at all. Three or more is "I can't move" territory and probably can't really be done standing up.
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Old 12-26-2018, 08:36 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

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Originally Posted by Xakaz View Post
2). Will all the participants (no matter, how many) end up in the same hex at some point?
"Legend speaks of the tavern brawl singularity..." : )
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Old 12-26-2018, 10:44 AM   #9
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

DouglasCole, I agree - it's kinda hard to imagine more than two human-sized characters fighting in 1x1 yd hexagon. But how then close combat fights with four or five participants should be played?

I think, one way, to keep things simple and avoid contradictions with rules, is assume that it's possibe to have unlimited number of combatants in the same hex. As per:
B392: "Any number of people may participate in close combat in the same hex."

This assumption brings the issue with facings. As in the thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=53231. If i get Kromm's answer refered in that thread right, then in the close combat situation like:

A><B<C

B is either facing A - then C is in its rear, or B is facing C - then A is in its rear. But what about A and C? Are they always in front of each other (as well as B is in front of them)? Are they capable of hiting one another? What if A wants to move to C's rear? Does he need to leave the close combat and move all the way around this hex and then enter the combat behind C? What if D an E join the combat?

I've, probably, dumped a lot of questions here, but I feel like there is a simple, non-contradictive solution in the rules, that I'm missing. And if there is no such solution, then I'm very interested in discussing your experience and approaches in handling such situations.
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Old 12-26-2018, 02:57 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Massive Close Combats

Very good questions!

I must admit the few times I have had this happen I have just had anyone but the first two stay in their own hex and still be able to hit, even though they in GURPS terms-are 1y away. We use slightly bigger miniatures and can't fit more than 2 into a hex (and that's difficult in itself).
Its an inelegant solution, but has worked OK.
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