05-24-2018, 10:16 PM | #11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
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05-24-2018, 10:43 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
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05-24-2018, 10:50 PM | #13 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Also Enhanced Dodge, Acrobatic Dodges, etc.
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05-24-2018, 10:53 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Most definitely alone
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Quote:
If two really skilled guys are sparring, you might have them in a fighting ring, where they can't simply retreat whenever they like, or heck, just a gym, where the walls are going to eventually restrict incessant retreats. In an actual fight, there might be uneven terrain, objectives to defend, or some sort of time imperative. Even if they are 'just practicing' a combat, having the players need to pay attention to terrain and the like is still good practice.
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05-24-2018, 10:57 PM | #15 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Quote:
Of course, that "featureless plain" bit is the trouble. Terrain should definitely play a role. While it's not actually in the rules as written, I'm of the opinion that, in addition to penalizing defenses and attacks, moving in bad footing, at least, should require DX or Acrobatics rolls to avoid falling. I'd definitely apply that to any defense that involved a Retreat, but I'd probably also call for a roll (though perhaps with a bonus) for any Dodge, since I assume those always involve at least a certain amount of footwork. |
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05-24-2018, 11:13 PM | #16 | |
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Quote:
If their skills were very high (judo or karate at 20 or more), use deceptive attack, as you did, but use it more widely: -10 or more. Only one attack in two will be successful, and it will still be parried or dodged one time in two, which means one good hit in four. It's low, but still better than waiting for critical successes or failure. If their dodges were very high (high speed + combat reflexes + retreat) use Feint instead. Here again, it will be a bit long because you will have to wait that one succeeds with a high margin of victory, but that's still better than just waiting for criticals. And I would add this: in both cases, use tactics. In such a case, one of the adversaries will eventually use all-out attack. The NPC, for instance. It will be risky for him but, with the deceptive option, it will give a further -2 to his foe's defense. Also use dirty tricks. In kobudo, we have a special technique named sunakake: it's a throw of sand to the eyes with the bo (long staff) and it is learned almost from the beginning. So, if it is teached, it is because it can be useful. Use techniques which can reduce the defense (counter attack, elbow drop...). Turn around the adversary to go in his back. Make him step back somewhere where he won't be able to retreat anymore. And so on. Last edited by Gollum; 05-24-2018 at 11:40 PM. |
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05-24-2018, 11:24 PM | #17 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central Texas, north of Austin
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
I don't know if you saw this thread, but the topic came up last month also:
High defenses in 4th edition Kromm even weighed in. I'm sure there's still room for discussion, so have at it. |
05-25-2018, 03:38 AM | #18 |
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the road again...
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
For reference, here is the NPC character sheet I was using.
The PC has DX 16, HT 15, Acrobatics 16, Enhanced Dodge 3, and Combat Reflexes, for a Dodge 14, with No Encumbrance. Also Judo and Karate at 18 with Enhanced Parry 3. Both were making a lot of Acrobatic Dodges, though I tried to mix things up with parries when necessary, along with a Cloak Block against the PC shooting at the NPC's foot (we joke about the player's character having a foot fetish as she keeps shooting peoples' feet; good tactic, except when cloak + boot DR soaks damage entirely). I remembered Deceptive Attack was a thing late in the fight, which helped later. Also, neither one of us used Feints - except during a lull in the fighting which was more of a "is this a flash-bang or a frag grenade I'm holding?" on the PC's part. We were doing this in a dock-side freight yard, so yes, terrain was a thing we took into account. No featureless white plains for us. EDIT: oops, forgot to turn on link sharing access on the NPC's sheet. Fixed
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05-25-2018, 05:33 AM | #19 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Enhanced Defences is something you have to be very careful with. Note that having levels of this is an optional rule - the standard is that you have it (for +1 to a defence) or you don't.
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05-25-2018, 05:57 AM | #20 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights
Sounds like the characters are built to be defense monsters. (DX 16, six levels of Enhanced Defense, Combat Reflexes, and Acrobatics just for the Dodge bonus.)
That's 80+ points devoted to defense. For attack, they have Karate-18, which at DX 16 means 12 points devoted to attacking. 80 points beats 12... which seems like an expected result. Try moving some of those points out of stacked defenses and into offense. (Dump 80 points into Karate, and you'd have it at 35, which means ten levels of Deceptive Attack as a routine measure reducing those defenses of 18 to 8, without even really reducing your chance to hit. Silly, yes, but that gives a measure of how extreme those defenses are. If you're not running a game that's meant to have that sort of cinematic wuxia ability, you might want to scale things down a bit.) Last edited by Anaraxes; 05-25-2018 at 06:06 AM. |
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