Is unarmed combat a contest of who can "grab first"?

[Plane]

Do you think you could use 'Extra Effort in Combat' rules with TK attacks (like Mighty Blows to get a damage bonus) but with FP being spent by the psychic instead of the imaginary TK hands?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ericthered

They also had high enough ST/skill that if you hit someone you would always do damage.

This might be really key. I've been running fights with guys with ST 11-13, and only 2 points in Brawling. So damage is in the 1d-2 to 1d range. There's a big difference between shock penalties mostly being -1 or -2 and being -4 most of the time.

[Michael Thayne]

Some data: I tried rolling 10 hits for an attacker with ST 13, Striker (Shin), and Karate at DX+2 vs. a target with HP 13, and using the random hit location table. Five of the hits were crippling injuries, one was a knockdown, one hit resulted in unconsciousness, and one did 9 damage to the torso (greatly reducing Dodge). The remaining two hits were torso hits insufficient to reduce dodge by themselves. This is dramatically different from what an unskilled striker can accomplish.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Some data: I tried rolling 10 hits for an attacker with ST 13, Striker (Shin), and Karate at DX+2 vs. a target with HP 13, and using the random hit location table. Five of the hits were crippling injuries, one was a knockdown, one hit resulted in unconsciousness, and one did 9 damage to the torso (greatly reducing Dodge). The remaining two hits were torso hits insufficient to reduce dodge by themselves. This is dramatically different from what an unskilled striker can accomplish.

Some more data: I removed Striker (Shin) from my build, assumed DX and HT 12 and Fit, and tried some fights where one fighter ("Grappler") starts with a hold on the other (dubbed "Striker"), but "Striker" gets the first attack after the grapple is established. "Striker" won 4 out of 10 fights like this, always by inflicting a crippling blow on the first turn post-grapple. I don't think the chance of doing this is actually 40% without Striker (Shin), though. Maybe more like 20% by my rough math. Maybe there's an additional 5% of match ups where "Striker" wins but not on his first turn post-grapple. So getting a grapple still results in victory 75% of the time. This makes grappling look more effective.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I've run a no holds barred unarmed tournament in rpol. I believe the correct move in that situation is to strike. This is because grappling someone severely restricts the grappler's defenses:

• They loose the ability to retreat, putting them at an effective -3 to defense (and thus +6 to opponent's attack) in most situations
• They must either let go with one hand or rely on their dodge, which tends to be the lowest defense available. Either option is a net benefit for the attacker.

I second this, also consider that the grappling opponent has to shift his grapple if he wants to execute other (grappling) techniques, this might help the other guy breaking free.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Hide

I second this, also consider that the grappling opponent has to shift his grapple if he wants to execute other (grappling) techniques, this might help the other guy breaking free.

In a street brawl against a human male who didn't have the foresight to wear a protective cup, the correct follow-up to achieving a grapple isn't to execute another grappling technique but to knee him in the groin. The Knee Strike technique is just -1 to target the groin in that situation and your opponent is at -2 to defend.

[Refplace]

I lean towards the least worse of the bad options you have left.
If your a superior grappler, either through strength or skill you have an edge but you can also try striking to get free.
Technical Grappling really helped and before that I thought grappling was the weakest area of GURPS combat.
Looking forward to the streamlined rules he came up with.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Refplace

... before that I thought grappling was the weakest area of GURPS combat.

It's always been pretty bonus, it's just very misunderstood and overlooked. "Swing a sword and do damage" everyone pretty much understands. "Grab an enemy and then... ummm... roll around in sweaty heap?"

Granted, MMA and clinch fighting have really been a fire storm in the last decade, so that style of unarmed fighting has been gaining popularity outside the martial arts genre games.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It's always been pretty bonus, it's just very misunderstood and overlooked. "Swing a sword and do damage" everyone pretty much understands. "Grab an enemy and then... ummm... roll around in sweaty heap?"

My main problem was it tended to be all or nothing. Very extreme. Not grappled, Grappled, Pin. No where near as graduated as regular GURPS combat. TG added a lot more nuance and give and take.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Some more data: I removed Striker (Shin) from my build, assumed DX and HT 12 and Fit, and tried some fights where one fighter ("Grappler") starts with a hold on the other (dubbed "Striker"), but "Striker" gets the first attack after the grapple is established. "Striker" won 4 out of 10 fights like this, always by inflicting a crippling blow on the first turn post-grapple. I don't think the chance of doing this is actually 40% without Striker (Shin), though. Maybe more like 20% by my rough math. Maybe there's an additional 5% of match ups where "Striker" wins but not on his first turn post-grapple. So getting a grapple still results in victory 75% of the time. This makes grappling look more effective.

The big drawback with grappling is that you use it you have to stay on your target, and often you have to go to ground. That's really bad if your target has friends.

The other thing is that grappling is slow - the action where you grab the other guy is an action where you usually do no damage, even if you succeed, so you are putting yourself behind in the damage race. It pretty much has to be good once you've got a hold, or it'd be useless compared to striking.