Tech Level Question - Page 3

maximara · 03-18-2019, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The word 'hyperdrive' doesn't really conflict with my description, but yeah, it's very very different from my recollection.

I don't know what you mean by "Connections theory" or, having just read the story, what you mean by the one exception.

The Connections Theory is effectively system theory regarding how technology comes about; Knowledge Web is an even deeper version of that way of looking at history. It is effectively what is called Great Moment in GUPRS Infinite Worlds.

He has done five series in this vein: four on technology and one (The Day the Universe Change) on science's view of the world. All the series are on the internet if you know where to look with the first episode of the First Series called "The Trigger Effect".

With regards to the one exception, that comes from the short story that "Road Not Traveled" was the prequel to Herbig-Haro which was republished once back in 1986

Thankfully "Herbig-Haro" can be found online via a link on the aliensoup forums. It's ok but not really on the level of "Road Not Traveled" as it gives only the humans prospective on events rather then both them and the aliens.

Daigoro · 03-18-2019, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara

This is my main beef with Ultra-Tech. Bio-tech took the right approach and didn't use anything but "^" for its superscience stuff. Ultra-Tech on the other hand assigned a number TL with the superscience even though the Basic Set stated "Equipment TLs are always debatable, but superscience TLs are arbitrary." So assigning a number to "^" kind of defeats the whole reason for "^" in the first place as the number is effectively useless as demonstrated by Gernsback and its TL6^ Broadcast power (TL10^ in Ultra-Tech.)

Instead of thinking of TL as belonging to a device, think of the TL as belonging to the society that created the device. That way, there won't be a contradiction in having a particular device being marked as TL10, say, in Ultra-Tech, and then showing up elsewhere at TL6^ or something.

That way you might have better luck following the author's intention in assigning TLs.

I could accept and see no contradiction in having Laser Pistol (UT TL9) being listed in different settings as a TL4^ Laser Pistol (Newton's experiments went unexpectedly well), a TL6+2^ Laser Pistol (Maxwellian Guns of the Tsar's Venusian Guard), or as a TL10 Laser Pistol. They all have the same general effect, but I would expect their stat lines to be different.

Flyndaran · 03-18-2019, 10:28 AM

Also Gurps is about the game effects, not necessarily the specifics.

A laser pistol has set damage dice and type whether it comes from literal laser and battery technology of the kind we could recognize or ritually enchanted crystals recharged by experts' prayers.

maximara · 03-18-2019, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Instead of thinking of TL as belonging to a device, think of the TL as belonging to the society that created the device. That way, there won't be a contradiction in having a particular device being marked as TL10, say, in Ultra-Tech, and then showing up elsewhere at TL6^ or something.

That way you might have better luck following the author's intention in assigning TLs.

I could accept and see no contradiction in having Laser Pistol (UT TL9) being listed in different settings as a TL4^ Laser Pistol (Newton's experiments went unexpectedly well), a TL6+2^ Laser Pistol (Maxwellian Guns of the Tsar's Venusian Guard), or as a TL10 Laser Pistol. They all have the same general effect, but I would expect their stat lines to be different.

Funny thing. Britannica-5 has this relationship with antimatter (normally TL10 on the chart but TL5^ in the setting) but in terms of how big a boom it does it functions exactly as antimatter does in Homeline. The superscience is not in the antimatter itself but the way it is produced and stored.

Another example is the Nautilus of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (advanced submarine, GURPS Steampunk pg 80) which uses cinematic sodium/mercury batteries which it must return to base to recharge. In GURPS 3e advanced submarine was listed TL(5+1) and but it is unclear if under GURPS 4e it should still be that TL. Moreover there as been at least one retcon of the Nautilus to having nuclear power (TL7) making advanced submarine TL(5+2) or a TL7 oddball. This means that depending on how one views advanced submarine it could be TL5^, TL(5+1), or TL7 (or should that be TL(5+2)^?).

It doesn't help that way GURPS uses superscience and TL(x+y) is very inconsistent partly due to the way GURPS Steampunk and Steamtech used the later. There are things that really existed our world that if they had worked as presented would be superscience.

Daigoro · 03-18-2019, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara

Funny thing. Britannica-5 has this relationship with antimatter (normally TL10 on the chart but TL5^ in the setting) but in terms of how big a boom it does it functions exactly as antimatter does in Homeline. The superscience is not in the antimatter itself but the way it is produced and stored.

I'm not sure how this relates to my suggestion. Doesn't that just mean that the TL5^ antimatter production technology comes from a TL5^ society?

Quote:

There are things that really existed our world that if they had worked as presented would be superscience.

If phrenology had worked, then it would be just normal science, not superscience.

maximara · 03-18-2019, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daigoro

If phrenology had worked, then it would be just normal science, not superscience.

No because you can get bumps by blows to the head (That is the gag in Browry Bugs) that have no baring on your intelligence or personality.

The current version of this is the Rorschach test is viewed as pseudoscience even by some in the field of psychology (with two court putting on less footing then a lie detector)

Ulzgoroth · 03-18-2019, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daigoro

If phrenology had worked, then it would be just normal science, not superscience.

True. But because it didn't, if you make a GURPS setting where phrenology works, it's superscience.

newton · 03-18-2019, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

True. But because it didn't, if you make a GURPS setting where phrenology works, it's superscience.

I would disagree, what it would require is humans being built differently rather than reality having entirely different physical laws.

David Johnston2 · 03-18-2019, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daigoro

If phrenology had worked, then it would be just normal science, not superscience.

But then that's true of all superscience. Not actually being possible is what defines superscience.

Daigoro · 03-18-2019, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximara

No because you can get bumps by blows to the head (That is the gag in Browry Bugs) that have no baring on your intelligence or personality.

There's a lot of reasons phrenology doesn't work, and I didn't say it does.

You pointed us to a list of pseudosciences, from which I chose phrenology as an easily recognised example, and you said that "if they had worked, they would be supersciences."

But, that sentence doesn't parse. If they had worked, then they worked, and they would have been real, not superscience.

03-18-2019, 10:28 AM	#23
Flyndaran Untagged Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon	Re: Tech Level Question Also Gurps is about the game effects, not necessarily the specifics. A laser pistol has set damage dice and type whether it comes from literal laser and battery technology of the kind we could recognize or ritually enchanted crystals recharged by experts' prayers. __________________ Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.