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Old 08-02-2018, 12:40 AM   #21
lachimba
 
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Default Re: DFRPG momentarily on Board Game Breakfast

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The salient comparison isn't RPG A vs. RPG B; it's RPGs vs. board games. Relative to board games, most RPGs are complicated.
.
My genuine belief is the Gloomhavens and future dungeon crawl boardgames are going to start pulling players off D&D.

The RPGs that successfully incorporate boardgame elements (Deckbuilding, hand management, jenga, whatever) are going to be disproportionately successful.


That most assuredly ends up not being DFRPG related.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:39 AM   #22
Kromm
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Default Re: DFRPG momentarily on Board Game Breakfast

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Originally Posted by lachimba View Post

My genuine belief is the Gloomhavens and future dungeon crawl boardgames are going to start pulling players off D&D.

The RPGs that successfully incorporate boardgame elements (Deckbuilding, hand management, jenga, whatever) are going to be disproportionately successful.

That most assuredly ends up not being DFRPG related.
The comment is certainly relevant to this thread. Here's some insight from the designer of the DFRPG (and of GURPS Fourth Edition, and of the original GURPS Lite for GURPS Third Edition):

I turned 51 last Friday. My vision of RPGs has its roots in 1979, with AD&D. It was shaped by nearly every RPG released up until I had to leave the student life, with all its free time, and start working full-time (1995). Fantasy RPGs (FRPGs) were always the most interesting RPGs for me, so those had a disproportionate influence, whether we're talking T&T and TFT or D&D 3.0/3.5 (the last version I played – and yes, I know it falls outside that date range).

My interest was never "games, especially RPGs" but rather "fantasy, especially games." I also liked fantasy movies, dressing up in fantasy costumes and whacking things with fake swords, and decorating my room – and later my apartment – with art depicting knights, magic, and monsters. Without that, I probably wouldn't have touched gaming. While I played my share of board games, card games, dice games, and war games, they collectively didn't amount to more than 10% of the time, money, and effort I invested in RPGs. And while I played non-fantasy RPGs, they collectively didn't amount to more than 20-30% of the time, money, and effort I invested in fantasy RPGs . . . and just about all the non-fantasy stuff was either zombie stories or modern-day technothrillers.

Perversely, once I started working on RPGs in 1995, I found I had less and less time for actually playing games. The first thing to go was all the non-RPG stuff; it was always peripheral, and now I had no time for it at all. I kept playing RPGs as a way to stay "fluent" in my art.

Which is a longwinded way of saying that the DFRPG was designed by a player of "traditional" FRPGs who never had much of a background in other games and who by 2016, when he was working on the game, hadn't looked at anything but a Rule Zero RPG with dice, character sheets, and a GM for . . . well, quite a few years. The results were about as "light" as a specialist such as myself was likely to manage. I imagine my bosses knew all that when they asked me to design it.

Going forward, lighter RPGs with more board-game-like or even toy-like mechanics are going to call for less-traditional designers. Not necessarily younger designers, but that's the way to bet.

That won't be the future of the DFRPG for lots of reasons. First, the DFRPG is based on a classic Rule Zero RPG with dice, character sheets, and a GM: GURPS. Second, it's fait accompli; going back and making it a different kind of game would be the retcon of all retcons. And third and most important, the designer is me. I could use my copious free time* to immerse myself in other kinds of games, but in my heart I know I won't, because my main hobby now is Argentine tango, not gaming. I'd have to give up one for the other, and all indicators are that dance is better for my body and my social wellbeing, and at least as good for my mind.

This isn't an apology or anything of the sort. It's just an explanation for why the DFRPG is what it is. I hope it helps people understand where it came from.

* That's a joke. Events in my life since 2016, in particular, have left me with almost zero free time (and very little money or energy).
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:52 AM   #23
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Default Re: DFRPG momentarily on Board Game Breakfast

DFRPG is an excellent game. It's a traditional RPG, and not "fashionable" perhaps. I think that traditional RPGs still have a hell of a future, because even if outnumbered by newer style games, they are always going to be an option in the toolkit for gamers. Just like classic literature is always there - maybe it's not cool, but you can still go into any bookstore anywhere (and I live in Asia and this is the case) and get a copy of a Dickens novel, or Homer.
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Old 08-03-2018, 06:58 AM   #24
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I'm not really a fan of rules light RPGs to be honest and it bugs me that so many games are rules light now. My opinion is, if you keep making the games have less and less rules, why are people going to keep buying? In he end the ultimate rules light game is just making stuff up together and agreeing on outcomes. I can't help but feel like thats what I'm doing in these rules light games and that holds no appeal to me because it ceases to be a game at all.
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:16 AM   #25
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Default Re: DFRPG momentarily on Board Game Breakfast

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In he end the ultimate rules light game is just making stuff up together and agreeing on outcomes. I can't help but feel like thats what I'm doing in these rules light games and that holds no appeal to me because it ceases to be a game at all.
I tend to agree, incidentally.

"Bang! Bang! Yer dead!"
"No I'm not – I got you first!"
"Nuh-uh."
"Uh-huh."
"Nuh-uh."
"Uh-huh."

I've sat through sessions of rules-light gaming that pretty much went like that, just on paper instead of in the playground. It can be fun, but it isn't something I'd bother to spend money on.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:15 AM   #26
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I tend to agree, incidentally.

"Bang! Bang! Yer dead!"
"No I'm not – I got you first!"
"Nuh-uh."
"Uh-huh."
"Nuh-uh."
"Uh-huh."

I've sat through sessions of rules-light gaming that pretty much went like that, just on paper instead of in the playground. It can be fun, but it isn't something I'd bother to spend money on.
That is exactly what it feels like.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:10 PM   #27
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I want to play games, so I want rules that tell me how to play them

The more I have to get out my powdered wig and play Judge trying to figure out how the rules of the game actually work or what they mean, referring to decades of forum posts as cases of precedent and commentary, the less happy I am

And having to play designer and make up rules because no-one has come up with such already? Ugh

I know DFRPG could stand to be twice as long or four times as much if it meant less work on my part to make things happen

RPGS anything can and will happan as the actions of the playing pieces are far less tightly constrained than in chess or backgammon, which is cool, but I never end up wondering 'how many sais can a Rook possibly carry?' in chess
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:26 PM   #28
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I never end up wondering 'how many sais can a Rook possibly carry?' in chess
True. At least that question has an answer: As many as the character has the ST to lug.

How many the hero can carry accessibly is a whole other kettle of monkeys. A sai weighs 1.5 lbs., so that's four per bandoleer (Adventurers, p. 113) and you can wear two bandoleers crisscrossed across your chest . . . plus one sai on each hip per belt (you get one belt with your clothing and can find more on Adventurers, p. 111), and I'd limit a character to two belts except in the 1980s . . . one sai in each boot . . . and one sai in either hand, which I'd be generous and say you could sheathe on the forearms when not in use. That's 16.

The rest would have to go in or on a backpack and be inconvenient to reach in battle. Of course if you have a half-ogre friend, you can hang them all over her pack and Fast-Draw them as needed when standing nearby.
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Old 08-03-2018, 09:34 PM   #29
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I want to play games, so I want rules that tell me how to play them
Because Gloomhaven doesn't have rules.

Descent doesnt have rules.

GURPS Lite doesn't have rules.

Hillfolk doesnt have rules

Gumshoe doesnt have rules.

Delta Green doesnt have rules.

I could go on.


Ive never had to make up rules to play those games.
Nor do I for any board game.
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Old 08-04-2018, 12:46 AM   #30
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Nor do I for any board game.
Last Tuesday my group had to make up a rule for Star Trek Ascendancy.


Occasionally edge-case situations arise that the rules designers just overlooked. It happens.
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