09-25-2017, 11:52 AM | #51 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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09-25-2017, 11:58 AM | #52 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
Also, the Palladium setting of Palladium games, where Demons and Devils are both evil and nasty, live on different planes/dimensions, and want to wipe each other out because they each see the other as in the way of multiversal domination. I think this may actually pre-date an explict demon-devil war in D&D's cosmology. In the Palladium setting the origins of each group are similar - they're natives of their respective planes.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." Last edited by Rupert; 09-25-2017 at 12:04 PM. |
09-26-2017, 10:58 AM | #53 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain —Europe
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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On the other hand, adventuring and killing monsters for loot isn't necessarily sinful nor motivated by profane greed. Ask Holy Warriors about it! And it matches with the post tenebras lux maxim (after darkness, light), one of its meanings being to bring out to light treasures or potentialities hidden by darkness or constricted by monsters, as it can be seen in mythical, cosmogonic wars and exploits of gods or angels against demons for wealth and also in the mining symbolism, very related to delving into dungeons as well.
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09-27-2017, 06:17 AM | #54 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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Actual Greed tends to be endemic, along with Bloodlust, Intolerance, and/or Callous.
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09-27-2017, 08:42 AM | #55 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain —Europe
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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In any case, a variety of options don't define the game, and very much of that greed is just a perception, which is there also in absence of the awareness of the cosmogonic meaning I pointed above —getting treasure from darkness, even by means of violence or theft, is analogue of the primordial Fiat Lux—, a meaning which on the other hand doesn't need to match with obvious or familiar forms of morality —and here's where even some "purely negative" traits could be redeemed. But I don't think it's needed to pursue the subject more deeply, so it's not my intention to do it.
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"Let's face it: for some people, roleplaying is a serious challenge, a life-or-death struggle." J. M. Caparula/Scott Haring "Physics is basic but inessential." Wolfgang Smith My G+ |
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09-27-2017, 12:25 PM | #56 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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The DM being a bit Monty Haul just rewarded everyone with so much money that my character had to leave. He was confused. I'm not extreme in roleplaying, but that was my character's entire motivation for adventuring.
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10-03-2017, 09:52 AM | #57 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
Honestly, I like the simplification of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy online having only one major group of "Fiends" in the form of Demons. But that doesn't mean you can't have different "subgroups" of Demons with different unifying traits. One old third party 3E D&D supplement, "Demonology", offered a unique mechanic for summoning Fiends, wrapping up all the Fiend types under the name "Demon", and then splitting them up into different "Families" based on the names used in 2nd Edition: Tanar'i, Baatezu, Yugoloths, etc.
So I suppose if you want to have your cake and eat it too, just say that all Evil Celestial Beings are called "Demons", but that the term "Demons" encompasses a large number of different groups, with different personality types, powers, motivations and weaknesses. And that adds a layer of difficulty that makes Demon-summoning all the more dangerous; many an Apprentice Summoner has died at the hands of a Malebranche he summoned, only learning too late that a circle for binding an Incubus won't work on them. |
10-03-2017, 12:08 PM | #58 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
Demon is pretty much like the modern usage of Alien (ET variety). Very generic fitting for anything not us and not from around here.
I think the Myth Inc. series of books had Demon just mean interdimensional foreigner, so we'd be demons if we went to another parallel reality.
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10-03-2017, 02:14 PM | #59 | |
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
As for the distinction of Devils versus Demons in Dungeons & Dragon the first mention of the idea occurred in the 6th issues of the Strategic Review in Feb 1976. The article was "The meaning of Law and Chaos in Dungeons & Dragons and their relationships to Good and Evil."
There was a chart and in the lower left (Lawful Evil) corner was marked Devils. And that is pretty much it until the release of the AD&D Monster Manual. They are not even listed on succeeding figure in the same article which places then current D&D monsters on the alignment graph. Here is what Gygax said on the topic. Quote:
As tabletop roleplaying developed into its own thing is seems natural to me that something more nuanced was developed. Last edited by robertsconley; 10-03-2017 at 02:20 PM. |
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10-03-2017, 03:18 PM | #60 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: It would be nice to have some AD&D style demons and devils
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DF cosmology is kinds fuzzy. I'll split if off though, since it's off topic. |
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cosmology, demons |
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