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Old 06-24-2008, 03:47 PM   #21
nyu2
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Respectfully, it strains my willing suspension of disbelief to accept that the typical player in an RPG would be able to roleplay a PC with an action-and-adventure background like "karate master" or "spy" without regularly trying to capitalize on the training. RPGs being adventure games at heart, most gamers who take such character histories are seeking to exploit them. As such, I'd only ever relegate them to inexpensive background skills in a game where in my role as GM, I had taken steps to ensure that they would never become especially relevant. Otherwise, I'd leave them in their general, expensive form to balance their utility.
That is a good argument against all Professional skills, not just 'action' ones. It sounds like you would really rather remove them, and turn each profession into a skill package.
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Old 06-24-2008, 04:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyu2

That is a good argument against all Professional skills, not just 'action' ones. It sounds like you would really rather remove them, and turn each profession into a skill package.
I have no problem with Professional Skills as long as people understand what they are. To wit, there are three generic skills in 4e that serve as placeholders for future author creations: Hobby Skill, Professional Skill, and Expert Skill. These are nothing more nor less than "generic Easy skill," "generic Average skill," and "generic Hard skill" for future use. However, we're only going to permit such future use where existing skills don't already cover the skill in question. The perception "They're called Professional Skills, so I guess all professions have one" comes from people reading too much into a name that was chosen mostly on a whim, as "hobbyist," "professional," and "expert" seemed more fun and less bland than "Easy," "Average," and "Hard."
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:23 PM   #23
Lord Carnifex
 
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Wow. That makes a lot of sense, and changes my approach to Professional skills entirely.

Up to now, I used them mostly as, "this is everything that your supposed to know how to do, even if it isn'ta full GURPS skill."
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Old 06-24-2008, 07:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Knowing that they are placeholders makes all the difference. Could we get that added to a FAQ, perhaps?
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Old 06-24-2008, 08:02 PM   #25
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
I have no problem with Professional Skills as long as people understand what they are. To wit, there are three generic skills in 4e that serve as placeholders for future author creations: Hobby Skill, Professional Skill, and Expert Skill. These are nothing more nor less than "generic Easy skill," "generic Average skill," and "generic Hard skill" for future use. However, we're only going to permit such future use where existing skills don't already cover the skill in question. The perception "They're called Professional Skills, so I guess all professions have one" comes from people reading too much into a name that was chosen mostly on a whim, as "hobbyist," "professional," and "expert" seemed more fun and less bland than "Easy," "Average," and "Hard."
Aah! That's a bit of a bombshell. Transforms my understanding of Expert Skills in especial.
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Old 07-15-2008, 09:13 PM   #26
Mgellis
 
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
I have no problem with Professional Skills as long as people understand what they are. To wit, there are three generic skills in 4e that serve as placeholders for future author creations: Hobby Skill, Professional Skill, and Expert Skill. These are nothing more nor less than "generic Easy skill," "generic Average skill," and "generic Hard skill" for future use. However, we're only going to permit such future use where existing skills don't already cover the skill in question. The perception "They're called Professional Skills, so I guess all professions have one" comes from people reading too much into a name that was chosen mostly on a whim, as "hobbyist," "professional," and "expert" seemed more fun and less bland than "Easy," "Average," and "Hard."
Interesting. The names are definitely a good idea, they're very stylish, I think, even though they sometimes cause a little confusion. I had originally interpreted them as...

Hobby = Knows clusters of information about a topic or can do some kind of craft, useful for role-playing, occasionally useful for spotting clues, fakes, etc. Most won't help you earn a living, although there would be some exceptions.

Professional = Understands a body of knowledge, technical skills, etc. well enough to earn a living at it; used for professions that are so specialized no skill exists for them OR a skill that is "a skill's worth" of bits from other skills that you would need for a specialized kind of job. (As far as a campaign is concerned, the real use of most of these would be role-playing and giving a character a way to earn a living...some might give them an edge in some adventures; Professional Skill (Exterminator), for example, would give a character a good excuse to scout around buildings...there was a TV show where the two detectives used this, but I can't recall the name now.)

Expert = Has a truly in-depth level of knowledge about one topic or an intersection between several topics; as written, it's main use would be for advisors and analysts, but if it's just a placeholder for any Hard skill, there might be exceptions.

Now, there are probably some gray areas. Is a plumber handled under Professional Skill (Plumber) or Mechanic (Plumbing)? Does a beekeeper have Animal Handling (Bees) or Professional Skill (Beekeeper)? Is knitting, if you are good enough to sell your work, a hobby or a profession? I suppose the gray areas will have to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

I agree that not every profession needs its own Professional Skill because what the character does is already covered by other skills. For example, I wonder if Professional Skill (Journalist) is necessary. What part of being a journalist isn't just Writing, Area Knowledge, Research, and Current Affairs? Yes, a journalist needs to know not to libel people, but isn't that just an aspect of Writing?

I could see someone having Expert (Journalism) which would cover such things as the history of the field, specialized aspects of communication law, mass communication theory, etc., but you wouldn't need this to work as a reporter at a local paper or a local radio station. You would need it if you wanted to be a pundit or an academic, though.

And, of course, there are other, more focused placeholder skills like Sports and Mechanic...placeholders in the sense that you can add new specialties when they're needed (e.g., Mechanic (HVAC)). That's one of the things I really enjoy about GURPS, that it lets you "play" by building truly unique characters. You might not use those oddball skills and specialties all that often, but I think it adds something that you've got the freedom to build characters like that if you want to.

Mark
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

I don't think Profession skill (Spy) really works. Even someone simply hired by the state department to sit at a desk and be a secretary who is also the field agent's cover probably qualifies for one point each in Acting, Fast-Talk, Intelligence Analysis, and Observation. Most desk jobs are simply Intelligence Analysis + one other skill, and most field jobs can be described in adventuring skill terms.

I have a hard time picturing someone saying, "I am going to spy" and making a roll against Profession skill (spy) and not using other skills. Profession skill is not the skill used to spy, and if it the skill used for something else, figure out what that something else is.

Some good skills for "spies":
Intelligence Analysis
Psychology
Politics
Area Knowledge
Research
Observation
Criminology
Savoir-Faire (Intelligence community, or your agency)
Diplomacy
Writing
Cryptography
Hold-out
Fast-Talk
Acting
Detect Lies
Administration
Expert Skill (some theatre of operations or some genre of spy strategy)
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:11 PM   #28
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Yes, a journalist needs to know not to libel people, but isn't that just an aspect of Writing?

I think it's possible to be a passable journalist while being an execrable writer at other pursuits. The requirements of journalism are specific enough you can learn to do it with a journalistic background and practice, with little poetry or technical clarity. All you have to do is to look at how badly headline are often written to know the typical journalist does not have Writing 12+.
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Old 07-16-2008, 05:46 AM   #29
Mgellis
 
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pawsplay
Yes, a journalist needs to know not to libel people, but isn't that just an aspect of Writing?

I think it's possible to be a passable journalist while being an execrable writer at other pursuits. The requirements of journalism are specific enough you can learn to do it with a journalistic background and practice, with little poetry or technical clarity. All you have to do is to look at how badly headline are often written to know the typical journalist does not have Writing 12+.
True. (My wife, the writing tutor at the university where I teach, puts up badly written headlines on a bulletin board as examples of poor writing.) I'm thinking someone like that would have Writing at a low level, like 10-, and is able to do his job simply because writing up short articles about a local farm market or a fender bender on Main Street counts as a Routine task and gets a +4 modifier.

If you wanted to build a character who could ONLY do reporting, give them Writing (Journalism), an Optional Specialty of Writing. They might be very good at this, but would be at a penalty to do other kinds of writing.

Mark
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:37 AM   #30
Mgellis
 
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Default Re: Professional skill (Spy)

As for the original posting, I would argue that Intelligence Analysis provides an academic understanding of espionage techniques. It wouldn't cover how to do these things, but you would know that when spies gather certain kinds of data, they often do X, Y, or Z.

So, for example, someone with Intelligence Analysis would probably know that spies sometimes use dead drops or the old "two guys with similar suitcases sit down next to each other and 'accidentally' pick up the wrong one" trick. But doing such things would use skills like Acting, Filch, Shadowing, Observation, etc.

(I suppose if you must have exceptions, you could use Optional Specialties like Intelligence Analysis (Satellite Photography)--obviously, someone like that probably won't know how dead drops work.)

So, no need for Professional Skill (Intelligence Officer). The only time you add a Professional Skill is if you can't easily cover it with existing skills.

Mark

Last edited by Mgellis; 07-16-2008 at 09:01 AM.
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