Has SJGames been working on GURPS 5th edition for 2 years, or is Steve just trolling?

[mburr0003]

[Had weird issues with the last post editing a spelling error, I'd hit the word count limit... sigh]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Dresden Files and Malazan Empire would both require custom magic systems that scale differently from the GURPS: Magic system. I'm not familiar enough with RPM to know if it would work for either of those but I assume not. At any rate I'm certain a newcomer would not know how to run Dresden Files or Malazan in GURPS without quite a lot of help.

I don't know Malazan, but Dresden Files should be easy enough if the GM feels confident enough to wing it and has RPM. Honestly the magic system is the hardest part, and RPM is perfect for Dresden Files as long as you give it a wee tappy-tap with the adjustment hammer.

(My tappity-tap is to treat take a suggestion from the FATE version, every mage has one "area/college/path/style" where they do not suffer Greater effects and one where they always suffer every spell as a Greater effect, all other 'paths/areas/etc" are treated normally under RPM. And the whole "Magic plays hell with technology" is package disad for casters that can be partially bought off. Harry's personal "do not suffer Greater Effects" area is "Fire and Blatant Destruction", he suffers under Greater Effect costs for anything "subtle", and he's never bought down his "messes up technology" Disad. His apprentice's personal 'easy' Path is Illusions and has bought up the Mind Path almost exclusively, suffers Greater Effects on all "Damaging Rituals", and had bought down the "tech messes up" as low as they could at chargen, bought it can never be completely bought off.)

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

[Had weird issues with the last post editing a spelling error, I'd hit the word count limit... sigh]


I don't know Malazan, but Dresden Files should be easy enough if the GM feels confident enough to wing it and has RPM. Honestly the magic system is the hardest part, and RPM is perfect for Dresden Files as long as you give it a wee tappy-tap with the adjustment hammer.

(My tappity-tap is to treat take a suggestion from the FATE version, every mage has one "area/college/path/style" where they do not suffer Greater effects ... snip)

I'm still reading through RPM, but so far it looks too me like RPM requires you to gather energy per spell, with multiple Concentrate maneuvers to accumulate enough energy. Even the simple 3d Fireball on RPM pg 42 costs 18 energy, AND it still has to be thrown separately. If a simple Fuego required 3-5 Concentrate maneuvers and an Attack maneuver, I'd call that a failure at emulating Harry's magic. Mana Reserve doesn't look big enough to help.

On top of that, RPM is simultaneously too powerful, because an RPM Harry who can create Fireball evocations is also an RPM Harry who can use Chill (RPM pg 39) and its inverse to chill his icebox and heat his water heater for hot showers, something Harry cannot do.

What rules am I overlooking that address these concerns of casting speed and overly broad magic?

Edit: oh, I see. Your rules tweak is designed to address point 1 (casting speed) by making everyone destructive cheaper for combat wizards like wardens?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I'm still reading through RPM, but so far it looks too me like RPM requires you to gather energy per spell, with multiple Concentrate maneuvers to accumulate enough energy. Even the simple 3d Fireball on RPM pg 42 costs 18 energy, AND it still has to be thrown separately. If a simple Fuego required 3-5 Concentrate maneuvers and an Attack maneuver, I'd call that a failure at emulating Harry's magic. Mana Reserve doesn't look big enough to help.

RPM is complex so you really need to understand the system and its not as easy as GURPS Magic.
The core is simple enough but the nuances can be tricky.
Also there are optional rules and tweeks in various supplements, including Pyramid.
He runs out of energy fast in the early books so Energy Reserve seems a good fit.
The tradeoff for making certain things Lesser Effects and others Greater Effects is a great all and will make a big difference. He also needs Ritual Adept.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I'm still reading through RPM, but so far it looks too me like RPM requires you to gather energy per spell, with multiple Concentrate maneuvers to accumulate enough energy. ?

Yes. Some people's relationship with RPM seems to get exaggerated and they start wanting it to be the solution to everything.

I'd do Harry's workhorse energy manipulations with Magic-as-Powers (possibly the Sorcery supplement which I have bypassed so far) and feed those Powers from an Energy Reserve with some rules about sacrificing something or other when your Reserve is empty.

Actually the main disadvantage of trying to do Harry with sufficiently high levels of Standard Magery and ER is that this would be too flexible. RPM probably would be too.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Rupert

The rules for initiative were reworked. They're much simpler in 2e. That's probably the change that people would notice most at the table, especially the GMs.

Okay, I'll give you that. On the whole, though, my sense of early editions of D&D is that they support some play-styles quite well and others quite poorly, and and I have no difficulty seeing why many people prefer that to the trying-to-please-everyone approach of 5e. The implications for GURPS can be argued either way—5e has proved that being the game system that makes everyone go, "eh, I can live with this" can be quite lucrative, but that doesn't necessarily make it the best approach for a system trying to claw its way out of obscurity.

OSR isn't even my preferred play-style—in my 1e books Gygax goes into some detail about why he's against hit location rules, whereas I love my hit location rules—but there's more going on there than just people trying to relive their teenage (or pre-teen) years.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

there's more going on there than just people trying to relive their teenage (or pre-teen) years.

IMHO there's people who think they can win arguments about what their character should or should not be able to do and prefer this to systems that more closely nail down character capabilities.

I _hate_ with a deep and abiding passion needing to fast-talk the GM to get things done. I think it's an OPH that was meant to be out-grown.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I'm still reading through RPM, but so far it looks too me like RPM requires you to gather energy per spell, with multiple Concentrate maneuvers to accumulate enough energy. Even the simple 3d Fireball on RPM pg 42 costs 18 energy, AND it still has to be thrown separately. If a simple Fuego required 3-5 Concentrate maneuvers and an Attack maneuver, I'd call that a failure at emulating Harry's magic. Mana Reserve doesn't look big enough to help.

On top of that, RPM is simultaneously too powerful, because an RPM Harry who can create Fireball evocations is also an RPM Harry who can use Chill (RPM pg 39) and its inverse to chill his icebox and heat his water heater for hot showers, something Harry cannot do.

What rules am I overlooking that address these concerns of casting speed and overly broad magic?

Edit: oh, I see. Your rules tweak is designed to address point 1 (casting speed) by making everyone destructive cheaper for combat wizards like wardens?

I’d point out that in the books, it’s often noted that wizards draw in energy before they throw an evocation spell. It never seems to take long, but that could be a combination of high skill, the use of a focus, and personal greater and lesser effects.

I have some notes on how I model Dresden magic on my blog. Feel free to take a look and let me know what you think.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

There's already Delvers To Go which is even simpler, since it already has derived stats like Dodge and Parry and DR calculated, and already has equipment loadouts.

Once people have played a combat or two, it's no longer so mysterious what "Enhanced Block" or "Hard To Kill" does or how much "One Eye" hurts you.

The initial onramp for new players should start by teaching how to play the game, and teaching them chargen then becomes a lot more straightforward. Pregens, random tables, or budgetless play ("pick whatever you want from this template and don't worry about the cost or which skills you leave blank") are all viable strategies IME for getting new players playing quickly, without bogging down in chargen. But you also have to make it clear that they won't be stuck with these initial decisions forever.

I have had some pretty good success using pregens with GURPS, though many players don't like using them. As for random tables, in theory I like the idea but coming up with tables that work well would be a lot of work.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

I’d point out that in the books, it’s often noted that wizards draw in energy before they throw an evocation spell. It never seems to take long, but that could be a combination of high skill, the use of a focus, and personal greater and lesser effects.

I have some notes on how I model Dresden magic on my blog. Feel free to take a look and let me know what you think.

In RPM you draw in energy for a specific spell (AFAICT) after you start it. In Dresden Files you just draw in your will, and then you are ready for multiple spells, maybe dozens in a row (Small Favor aquarium fight). Thematically similar but the differences in execution seem to preclude using RPM to replicate Dresden Files magic; and as mentioned previously, RPM is also too flexible and would lead to different solutions than we see in the Dresdenverse.

The blog link just leads me to a blank page. "You don't have any WordPress sites yet. Would you like to start one?"

Edit: found a working link through your signature. I may be missing something but it looks to me like there's nothing there that speeds up casting evocations sufficiently to replicate the events of the novels. The spell prices just don't match the slow rate of energy gathering. Dresden Files magic is orders of magic faster than RPM at gathering energy.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

In RPM you draw in energy for a specific spell (AFAICT) after you start it. In Dresden Files you just draw in your will, and then you are ready for multiple spells, maybe dozens in a row (Small Favor aquarium fight). Thematically similar but the differences in execution seem to preclude using RPM to replicate Dresden Files magic; and as mentioned previously, RPM is also too flexible and would lead to different solutions than we see in the Dresdenverse.

The blog link just leads me to a blank page. "You don't have any WordPress sites yet. Would you like to start one?"

Edit: found a working link through your signature. I may be missing something but it looks to me like there's nothing there that speeds up casting evocations sufficiently to replicate the events of the novels. The spell prices just don't match the slow rate of energy gathering. Dresden Files magic is orders of magic faster than RPM at gathering energy.

Thanks for the heads up on the link, I think I fixed it.

I admit, my approach works better for the earlier books, before Harry becomes a much more powerful character. I still think it works well for what I imagine the average wizard can do in the Dresden-verse. Harry is a heavy-hitter, and many of the other wizards depicted in the books tend to be wardens or the most powerful wizards of the white council. They would all have to be high point total characters for modified RPM to work, but they could still work.

If Harry has blasting Energy spells as a personal lesser effect, and skill of 23 or more in the spell Fuego (or his blasting rod grants him Ritual Adept (Time) and he has a skill of 17), and has bought up the technique to counteract the penalty for reducing the 5 second energy gather time, half the time he can gather the energy for a Fuego doing 3 dice of damage in one second.

The exact method, effort, and time it takes to gather energy and cast a spell in the books is never explicit. The fact that gathering energy is mentioned at all, I think gives a GM license to say it is a requirement for all casting. Really fast effects where no concentration is required seem to be tied to charms of some sort, especially in the earlier books.

I deal with the flexibility of RPM by not allowing wizards to improvise magic. They have to learn defined spells and record them on their character sheet. They can learn spells from other wizards, and only create new ones through the invention process.