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Old 01-14-2022, 11:32 AM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Armor in DFRPG is actually somewhat more effective than the armor in 4e's Basic Set, because DFRPG follows Low-Tech on this point. The borderline-ridiculous damage outputs of the specific characters being referenced are a product of Weapon Master, which is in 4e Basic Set.
Well, in part. A lot of the blame is just with the ST damage table (also in Basic, of course).
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:33 PM   #12
ericthered
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Even when working with ballistics, which are well researched, Gurps tends to use numbers generated from strait-on hits, which are usually worst case scenarios for armor. So Gurps armor is low even there.

That said, the low DR numbers are probably more gameable. Crit-fishing for chinks in plate or playing a high-fidelity grappling game might be more realistic, but in most cases not as fun as what we have.


And when pointing out where gurps is wrong, we would do well to remember that gurps is close enough to reality that our complaints can make sense at all, which is a lot better than most the alternatives.
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Old 01-14-2022, 12:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

There's a very simple fix for 'realistic' ST-based damage: just don't let people buy high levels of ST. A simple rule is "Swing damage cannot exceed Lifting ST/10 dice", which means someone at Lifting ST 20 is only permitted to have ST 14.
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Old 01-14-2022, 01:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

I know that most of the folks posting here know this (or have already said so) but I want to reiterate for newcomers to DFRPG that the "DF" in DFRPG means "Dungeon Fantasy" which is explicitly a cinematic genre where over-the-top faux-medieval superheroes go toe-to-toe with dragons and demons and hordes of orcs. In this genre, a barbarian is expected to be able to embed her axe in a fully armored knight's chest.

It's relatively easy to turn the dials the other way, and the full version of GURPS gives plenty of guidance for how to do so. (Limiting attributes, sticking to non-cinematic advantages, etc.)
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Old 01-14-2022, 11:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
For what it's worth, I played in a game with swing = thrust + 2 and it helped with a whole host of stuff. Might not be for everyone, but I dug it.
This is getting a bit OT, but the issues with the ST table aren't purely about swing damage. I took a close look at what Martial Arts says about boxing, and found it models lightweight boxing pretty well in terms of how many punches will be thrown before the fight is over. But try to model a heavyweight boxing match in GURPS and its hard to avoid having the contestants knock each other out too fast, since damage increases faster than HP as ST increases.
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Old 01-15-2022, 12:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
For what it's worth, I played in a game with swing = thrust + 2 and it helped with a whole host of stuff. Might not be for everyone, but I dug it.
I just dropped a blog article on sort of the same thing.

Specifically, it's on the idea of dropping the ST-based damage stat, and instead building a swing's damage bonus entirely into the weapon's swing damage add.

In practice, it works out to what you describe: just use thrust damage as the base for thrust and swings alike, and tack on a couple more points for the swing. (You've played with an exact +2; I suggest a more varied amount, but it often works out to +2. Similar concept either way.)

I don't know how many people would find the discussion interesting, but I suspect you might.

Taking that back to the original post:

On the matter of slicing through armor too easily, I'll reiterate that removing the intentionally cinematic Weapon Master would be the first step to taming damage monsters like Yvor and Miao Miao.

If that's not enough, reining in high ST-based swing damage would be the next step. I'd recommend that ArmoredSaint give your suggestion (or my variant) a try and see how it goes.

Beyond that, I think the next step would be to look at the other side of the equation, and consider giving armor better protection. But that's a topic for another post. (And a matter of just what level of realism ArmoredSaint or anyone else wants to achieve. I like my realism too, but I'm happy to set a lot of it aside for anything with Fantasy in the title.)
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Old 01-15-2022, 03:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

Not sure about the game, but your handle is the same as one of my favorite bands...ARMORED SAINT!
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Old 01-15-2022, 04:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

A thing to bear in mind about the characters doing all that damage: they paid points for it. Often they paid a lot of points. If you reduce costs to reflect reduced value, that gives them more points to put into... other ways of increasing damage. Or abilities that render armor irrelevant.

The other thing to bear in mind is that real hit probability (including failed active defense) against a comparably skilled foe in GURPS is quite low; if you combine that with only averaging a point or two per hit combat will turn into an immense slog.
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Old 01-15-2022, 04:39 PM   #19
JulianLW
 
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by ArmoredSaint View Post
I'm so dismayed that I spent money on this product. I used to like GURPS for its greater realism, and am saddened to see that it has evolved in this direction.
Dude. The damage table is literally exactly the same as the one that appeared in Man to Man back in 1985. I think what you're really saying is that you don't want to play a game with 250 point characters.

Don't hate the game, player!
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Old 01-15-2022, 10:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

As others have said, the basic issue is that DFRPG is highly cinematic. The base is 250 point characters who have unrealistically high striking damage combined with advantages that further enhance damage. Note that characters can also take unrealistically high HP and levels of Toughness. GURPS was always a little cinematic for ST based damage and in 4e for hit points. So if you want more realism you could start with:

1. Start with fewer points.
2. Don't allow Weapon Master.
3. As others have suggested, limit ST. Probably HP as well.
4. More sharply limit or simply don't allow traits like striking ST and Toughness.

More drastic changes:

5. Something I've seen suggested to keep striking ST more realistic - require purchases of ST to alternate with Lifting ST & Heavy Weapons Perk, or possibly HP. So a hulking barbarian wouldn't have ST 18, he would have ST 14, +4 Lifting ST, +4 HP and possibly +4 Heavy Weapons perks. That would lower base damage but let him lift heavy things, use heavy weapons and soak damage.
6. Enhance armor vs cutting weapons. I've seen suggestions like doubling DR vs swing attacks or the idea of edge protection. There was also Cole's suggestion of simply toning down Swing damage.
7. Possibly add new abilities - techniques for attacking vulnerabilities in armor, etc.

Unfortunately as it is sounds like DFRPG isn't suited for your kind of games without tweaking.
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