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Old 09-23-2019, 06:29 AM   #131
NineDaysDead
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Both Sherlock Holmes and Leonardo Da Vinci were given stats in GURPS classic.

Sherlock Holmes appeared in Horror 1e: IQ 16
In Horror 2nd ed Sherlock Holmes had IQ 18, Alertness +4, Intuition, Danger Sense and Eidetic Memory.
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Old 09-23-2019, 06:51 AM   #132
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

There is a compression between 3e and 4e though, based on the amount of points spent. A character with IQ 18 3e should probably have IQ 16 4e, but Eidetic Memory 3e should probably be equal to +1 IQ 4e per level, so the IQ would go back up to 18. We are talking about a fictional character though, so it fine if he is 1:100 million in IQ.
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:02 AM   #133
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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There is a compression between 3e and 4e though, based on the amount of points spent. A character with IQ 18 3e should probably have IQ 16 4e, but Eidetic Memory 3e should probably be equal to +1 IQ 4e per level, so the IQ would go back up to 18. We are talking about a fictional character though, so it fine if he is 1:100 million in IQ.
He only had Eidetic Memory, not Photographic Memory in that write up. These days I'd consider using Accelerated Learning [20/level] instead of boosting IQ. I'm still fine with Sherlock Holmes having an IQ of 18 though; he's not a realistic character.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:29 AM   #134
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Looking at the feat in question to it's more a series of small lifts and "shrugs" but also pushes along the frame. So is that a Lift in GURPS terms or a carry in GURPS terms (and all that entails for what rules apply and what don't)?

I don't know because to me neither action as described by GURPS really match it. And in general that's fine because we are talking about a very specific action that's not likely to turn up outside a strong man competition so I don't need a specific set of rules for that specific thing.
He did not push it. He carried it. You could describe the steps taken while carrying it as "small lifts", but that is often true for carrying things. I don't think many GMs would allow you to ignore the restriction on applying Lifting skill to carrying stuff just because you declare that you do it with "small lifts"...

Carry On Back seems to fit what he did well. The 15 x BL version of Carry On Back represents an extremely strenuous act of carrying (lose 1 FP per second!) of something so heavy that you likely can't lift it by yourself (so that you either need help with that, or as in this case, the weight is already elevated).

Last edited by Andreas; 09-23-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:43 AM   #135
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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I'll keep all of this in mind for the limits to apply to my next campaign.

Also, what would happen to realistic ST values if we didn't have a Lifting Skill ?
They would be higher then they are which is why the skill was added to the game back with 3.5 in 1996.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:48 AM   #136
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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He did not push it. He carried it. You could describe the steps taken while carrying it as "small lifts", but that is often true for carrying things. I don't think many GMs would allow you to ignore the restriction on applying Lifting skill to carrying stuff just because you declare that you do it with "small lifts"...

Carry On Back seems to fit what he did well. The 15 x BL version of Carry On Back represents an extremely strenuous act of carrying (lose 1 FP per second!) of something so heavy that you likely can't lift it by yourself (so that you either need help with that, or as in this case, the weight is already elevated).
Well like I said IMO it seems a mix of both lifting and carrying, so yeah I'd have the BLx15 in there but I'd also also lifting skill to play a roll.



Problem is once you start looking as what these chaps do in competition they are far more diverse than the various lifts (or carries) set out in GURPS. Some interpretation will be needed. Well until "GURPS physical exertion" comes out anyway!

Ultimately though in the context of this thread I think this is a fringe action. So not one that's very appropriate to extrapolate too much from. Weather that's the man's ST in GURPS terms, or how GURPS does lifting (or carrying).

As I pointed out if you give him ST22 in order to do this as a straight BLx15 carry, you also gives him an overhead lift of 775lbs without effort every 4 secs. (well I guess you could give him ST22 and buy down arm ST!)
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:56 AM   #137
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As I pointed out if you give him ST22 in order to do this as a straight BLx15 carry, you also gives him an overhead lift of 775lbs without effort every 4 secs. (well I guess you could give him ST22 and buy down arm ST!)
Without Extra Effort. If one were to adjust the GURPS rules to better represent real feats of strength, getting tired faster by various activities would likely be an important part.

Consider the case of someone wtih ST 10. How likely is it that the kind of average person ST 10 is supposed to represent (even if that is an average among healthy adults fit for military service) could lift of 160lbs overhead without effort every 4 secs?

Rather than Carry On Back, Lifting seems like a more appropriate place to make changes.

Last edited by Andreas; 09-23-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:59 AM   #138
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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In Horror 2nd ed Sherlock Holmes had IQ 18, Alertness +4, Intuition, Danger Sense and Eidetic Memory.
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There is a compression between 3e and 4e though, based on the amount of points spent. A character with IQ 18 3e should probably have IQ 16 4e, but Eidetic Memory 3e should probably be equal to +1 IQ 4e per level, so the IQ would go back up to 18. We are talking about a fictional character though, so it fine if he is 1:100 million in IQ.
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He only had Eidetic Memory, not Photographic Memory in that write up. These days I'd consider using Accelerated Learning [20/level] instead of boosting IQ. I'm still fine with Sherlock Holmes having an IQ of 18 though; he's not a realistic character.
Actually, Conan-Doyle stated that Sherlock Holmes was based on his teacher Joseph Bell. Also some of Holmes' detective powers were demonstrated by Conan-Doyle himself. These factors bring down Holmes IQ down to realistic levels.

I should add that I tried to recreate Holmes using 3e rules and it simply couldn't work - the relationship between his IQ attribute and some of his mental skills didn't work as they were too low if they were from default and too high if he even had 1/2 a point in them. The version of Holmes on GURPSwiki tries to take as much of the canonal stories (not movie or play versions) as well as the Bell and Conan-Doyle connection.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:12 AM   #139
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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Actually, Conan-Doyle stated that Sherlock Holmes was based on his teacher Joseph Bell. Also some of Holmes' detective powers were demonstrated by Conan-Doyle himself. These factors bring down Holmes IQ down to realistic levels.
No they don't, anymore than Hafthor having a really high ST score makes Superman's super high ST score more realistic.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:20 AM   #140
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Default Re: Maximum Attributes for Real World People

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I think it kind of depends on how high a skill (and Will if combining with EE) you allow.

I don't have an issue with good technique (i.e skill) value adding a lot to physical feats.

But I also don't have an issue with that kind of specific and intensive training that gives you that kind of advantage also improving your raw ST.

I.e you training for years to do this yes you will get better at lifting, through technique but you value adding to you increasing raw strength in this area as well.


For me the idea of it being an overall combined effect to achieve specific goals makes sense.
GURPS seems to set unmodified rolls as what you would encounter in an adventuring situation, and give a +4 modifier for everyday use, e.g;

Unmodified lifting roll: moving an awkward rock that's blocking the exit to the dungeon while orcs are chasing you and shooting arrows at you.

Lifting +4 roll: In a gym, lifting weights that are designed to be lifted with no one attacking you.

So skill HT 10 WILL 10 skill Att+2 gives skill 12; in a gym gives you an effective skill of 16, meaning without extra effort you can increase your lift by upto 65% or with Extra Effort by upto 130%. That's just not realistic.
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