Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

You're forgetting about techniques--notably targeted attacks.

Actually, I specified in my original post that the Operator has the TA: Skull Technique bought up to Guns -3, instead of defaulting to Guns -7.

Modern militaries' soldiers are drilled to shoot 'two in the chest, one in the head' or something similar.

While I cannot speak for the "modern Militaries" of other countries, I did serve as an Infantryman in the US Army for 6 years, and at no time were we trained on the Mozambique Drill. We aimed for center mass, every time.

When they're going for special forces, those Targeted Attacks should be bought up to maximum level,

Which I already did...

...which would significantly increase the chance to hit. Also, if you assume that the Delta are aiming for the terrorists' heads, then the shots to the chest might be considered missing the skull by one for a torso hit.

Even with TA: Skull at max, it doesn't cut the mustard. These guys have to be able to do this every time, and I don't think a 62% success rate accurately reflects that.

[doulos05]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Actually, I specified in my original post that the Operator has the TA: Skull Technique bought up to Guns -3, instead of defaulting to Guns -7.

Pick an easier target. Face is only -5, meaning TA: Face goes up to -1 instead of -3. And really, if I put 2 9mm slugs in your face, are you any less dead than if I put them in your forehead?

While I cannot speak for the "modern Militaries" of other countries, I did serve as an Infantryman in the US Army for 6 years, and at no time were we trained on the Mozambique Drill. We aimed for center mass, every time.

Right, definitely. Though, depending on the unit, that's probably because most soldiers aren't actually putting enough rounds downrange in a year to accrue more than 1 cp in Guns a year. I mean, 200 hours means 1 hour a day every business day, for all intents and purposes. Maybe some units go through ammo like that, but I suspect most do not.

Which I already did...

Even with TA: Skull at max, it doesn't cut the mustard. These guys have to be able to do this every time, and I don't think a 62% success rate accurately reflects that.

Right, but I don't think they actually targeted the skull. I think they targeted the face, which is two easier, raising the success rate to 83%. Also, just because the rounds missed the tangos, doesn't mean they had to hit the 'hostages'. They could have just hit the walls, etc. The description gives no details about whether any rounds missed tangos, only that no rounds hit 'hostages'.

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Actually, I specified in my original post that the Operator has the TA: Skull Technique bought up to Guns -3, instead of defaulting to Guns -7.

...snip...

Even with TA: Skull at max, it doesn't cut the mustard. These guys have to be able to do this every time, and I don't think a 62% success rate accurately reflects that.

My bad. First reading of your post was with a screaming diaper factory in arm. Still, I think you're assuming that they have to be able to hit every target every time when all we concretely know is that they hit no hostages this time and probably killed all of the tangos. But even the descriptions of the kill shots are incredibly vague--there's no description (in the quoted selection, anyway) of what proportion of the shots hit the head/face compared to those that hit the chest.

Also, seconding doulos05's comments. All target silhouettes I've seen center the headshot mark in an area I'd call the face, not the skull, in GURPS terms. And in battlefield reports I've heard, marksmen aim for the sinus area (nose or eyes). It stands to reason that the face is the real target of the head-shot, not the skull.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

So is the consensus of the GURPS community that a Tier 1 unit like Delta might see the AVERAGE assaulter Guns skill in the neighborhood of 20+?

No, just a personal feeling that 20 in one intensely trained skill isn't really out of the question.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Not exactly true. Delta recruits from all over the Army, not just from the Special Forces community. Many Delta Operators came from the Ranger regiments, or from high-speed units like the 101st or 82nd Airborne Division.

Same basic process. Rangers and Airborne units recruit from a limited sample of the Army. Either way, by the time you reach Delta Force you should expect to be dealing with people who are outliers.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

I agree that modern Delta Operators would probably be using a CCO for room clearing, but in the specific example in the book, the Delta Cadre (and Haney's OTC students, eventually) were able to do the work with MP5s with iron sights. An EOTech or AimPoint would certainly make the job easier, but the point is that these guys could do it in 1979 without a reflex sight. Also, performing a move and attack means you are not doing an AoA, at least from my understanding of GURPS rules and Tactical Shooting.

Ah, I missed the detail that they were using irons.

My point with AoA is that these guys weren't using MandA, they were using AoA instead. MandA is a guy who is running flat out and shooting wildly in the approximate direction of the bad guy (which is why skill is capped at 9). AoA is walking quickly but steadily with the gun shouldered and some slight attention paid to the sights.

[safisher]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Or is this skill level something that GURPS simply cannot represent without superhuman levels of Guns skill?

Hard to know all the facts from the description. For starters, we need to know distances and the number of targets. We also need to know methods. TS, p. 13 has "sighted shooting" as All-Out Attack (Determined), which is +1. It's possible they were Braced with slings, which is +1. That betters the odds.

Either way, you also have the fact that this is a training environment where the cadres had practiced, knew the lay of the room and the distances involved, and so forth. Obviously, that's not real combat. Consider applying positive Task Modifiers, from +1 to +10 for those sorts of situations. I wouldn't apply this to students, mind, but to cadre, as a part of their familiarity with the range and the drill, yes this is easier. One key function of good firearms training is changing drills so that no one learns to game the system. If someone is gaming the system, they are using TDMs. I can also tell you that loud noises, such as shooting and flashbangs tend to rattle folks, and thus their perception of time may be off. Did your observer mention a shot clock?

[sir_pudding]

Honestly the exercise seems unlikely to actually have occurred in that fashion. Most commanders aren't going to sign off on a training ORA that involves a strong likelihood of blue-on-blue; especially as a stunt to wow the trainees. My guess is that it's a lot more controlled than described.

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

Assuming the "terrorists" are no further than 5 yards away (-2 to skill), the operator is performing a "Move and Attack" maneuver

Why? There's no reason to assume this, and every reason to assume not to. In every CQB course I've done, we were trained to shoulder our weapons and fire aimed shots (real life "aimed"; so GURPS sighted). AoA (Determined) is much more appropriate here.

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by doulos05

Pick an easier target. Face is only -5, meaning TA: Face goes up to -1 instead of -3. And really, if I put 2 9mm slugs in your face, are you any less dead than if I put them in your forehead?

Good point. So TA:Face is more likely the technique used to represent the sort of training these guys do. Now...if I'm reading the rules right, the best you can do with TA:Face, which defaults to Guns -5 is improve it to Guns -3. The net effect is you are only +1 better than maxed TA:Skull, albeit for a cheaper cost in CP.

Right, definitely. Though, depending on the unit, that's probably because most soldiers aren't actually putting enough rounds downrange in a year to accrue more than 1 cp in Guns a year. I mean, 200 hours means 1 hour a day every business day, for all intents and purposes. Maybe some units go through ammo like that, but I suspect most do not.

Agreed. I would have killed to get 5 hours per week on the shooting range. Unfortunately, we didn't get close to that much.

Right, but I don't think they actually targeted the skull. I think they targeted the face, which is two easier, raising the success rate to 83%. Also, just because the rounds missed the tangos, doesn't mean they had to hit the 'hostages'. They could have just hit the walls, etc. The description gives no details about whether any rounds missed tangos, only that no rounds hit 'hostages'.

Most likely, they didn't miss at all. The thing with Hostage Rescue/CT, is you cannot afford to miss. You never know what is in the way, and missing your target could result in very lethal consequences. Besides, a miss means it takes you that much more time to engage the hostiles that are present. I just can't see an Operator getting a passing score with the Cadre grader saying "Well sergeant, you killed 4 tangos, but it took you 12 shots. You didn't directly hit any hostages, so that's good enough."

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

My bad. First reading of your post was with a screaming diaper factory in arm.

No worries. I have three kids myself, so I know the feeling. :-)

Still, I think you're assuming that they have to be able to hit every target every time when all we concretely know is that they hit no hostages this time and probably killed all of the tangos. But even the descriptions of the kill shots are incredibly vague--there's no description (in the quoted selection, anyway) of what proportion of the shots hit the head/face compared to those that hit the chest.

Agreed. It would help if we had an exact description of how many rounds were fired, how many "terrorists" were in the room, where the missed rounds, if any, went, etc.

But since that information isn't available, I'm coming at this in the opposite direction.

1.) Is is plausible that, given the circumstances and the training, these phenomenal Operators could indeed fire exactly enough shots to put two rounds into each Tango, and not miss a single shot? If we are talking about a Guns skill of 18+, then I would bet the answer is "Yes".

2.) Is that a realistic level of training, considering the types of operations that Delta can and has been called on to perform? Again, I think "Yes."

Think about it. These guys train to breach and clear aircraft that are filled with hostages. You cannot afford a miss. It's just WAY too risky in a hostage situation. You HAVE to be able to do, repeatedly, at least 90% of the time. If you cannot be THAT reliable in the execution of that task, then you might as well just frag the whole room and claim collateral damage.

Also, seconding doulos05's comments. All target silhouettes I've seen center the headshot mark in an area I'd call the face, not the skull, in GURPS terms. And in battlefield reports I've heard, marksmen aim for the sinus area (nose or eyes). It stands to reason that the face is the real target of the head-shot, not the skull.

Agreed. The FACE it is!

[TheOneRonin]

Originally Posted by lexington

No, just a personal feeling that 20 in one intensely trained skill isn't really out of the question.

And it may not be. I haven't been playing GURPS for very long, but from most of what I've read, in the books and on these forums, skill levels of 20+ tend to be limited to cinematic games, and don't really have a place in tactical, realistic games.

However, this may be a fringe case, and might make perfect sense, considering the unit we are talking about.

Same basic process. Rangers and Airborne units recruit from a limited sample of the Army. Either way, by the time you reach Delta Force you should expect to be dealing with people who are outliers.

I get where you are coming from, though your points are not entirely valid. I know two guys who got Ranger school added to their contracts when signing up right out of highschool, and these guys weren't anything special. I also had a handful of guys that I graduated Infantry School with who got postings to units in the 82nd, and they weren't high-speed soldiers by any means.

Yes, you need to be a performer to pass Delta selection. And probably, if you aren't considered Delta-material by your chain of command, you won't even get a shot. Delta does pick up the best of the best, but it doesn't limit it's recruiting to only top tier units.

Ah, I missed the detail that they were using irons.

My point with AoA is that these guys weren't using MandA, they were using AoA instead. MandA is a guy who is running flat out and shooting wildly in the approximate direction of the bad guy (which is why skill is capped at 9). AoA is walking quickly but steadily with the gun shouldered and some slight attention paid to the sights.

You know, I totally forgot that you can move 1/2 your base move with AoA. I think you are spot on. The room was probably small enough for the Cadre to easily cross it in 3 seconds while performing AoA maneuvers.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by TheOneRonin

And it may not be. I haven't been playing GURPS for very long, but from most of what I've read, in the books and on these forums, skill levels of 20+ tend to be limited to cinematic games, and don't really have a place in tactical, realistic games.

However, this may be a fringe case, and might make perfect sense, considering the unit we are talking about.

IIRC, Kromm said once that 300 points of abilities, justified by the characters background are better than 50 points of unjustified abilities.