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Old 10-17-2018, 09:42 AM   #1
ericthered
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Default Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

We had a situation come up in a game, where a kick to the legs was made against a character with a mediocre dodge and a sky-high judo parry, with the intent to prevent the character from parrying, or at least inflict a penalty. Martial arts is in full effect though not technical grappling (as it has its own system), and we're trying to be as RAW as possible (its an arena game).

On martial arts page 123 it says that I can parry with my leg using Karate, Brawling, Boxing, or Sumo, though the last two get a -2 penalty. It appears I cannot leg parry at all with judo, but I can freely and without penalty parry kicks to the foot with my hands.

On page 122, "What is... a Parry?" it indicates you can count yanking a limb out of the way as a parry. Would this apply to judo legwork? it seems like it should, but as above, you can't leg parry with judo.

Now for the weird stuff. After parrying the low kick with my hands, I can freely throw my opponent, and it appears that I can stick him in an arm lock without grappling first, because I've bare-handed parried his melee attack (see Basic 403 or Martial Arts 65). This is quite bizarre, as I didn't get anywhere near his arm. The throw I can maybe justify, but the arm lock almost reads like a murphy rule.

If I was the GM this would be nice to settle, but we're looking for a RAW solution.

So my questions are:
  1. Is there a RAW way to penalized parrying low kicks with your hands?
  2. Can Judo leg parry attacks to that leg?
  3. Is there something I'm missing on the conditions for throws and arm-locks here?
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:02 AM   #2
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

There's nothing about requiring the parry to be against an arm-driven attack to be able to do an Arm Lock after it? If it worked against parrying kicks then it'd probably work after parrying headbutts/bites too, which would also seem strange.

I remember an optional rule like "low line parries" somewhere in martial arts which was a -2 to use arms to parry attacks aimed at the legs, the point of which I assume was to give incentive to using Leg Parry instead.
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Old 10-17-2018, 12:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
There's nothing about requiring the parry to be against an arm-driven attack to be able to do an Arm Lock after it? If it worked against parrying kicks then it'd probably work after parrying headbutts/bites too, which would also seem strange.

Yeah, it seems very strange. I can't find it though.


Quote:
I remember an optional rule like "low line parries" somewhere in martial arts which was a -2 to use arms to parry attacks aimed at the legs, the point of which I assume was to give incentive to using Leg Parry instead.

I've been looking all over martial arts for some rule like that and I can't find one.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

I know this is a "rules question" and not a "real world" question, but maybe a "real world" answer can help with the rule?

I took Judo, briefly, and it's a "soft" art that focuses on using an opponent's energy against him or her. As such, those who practice it don't "block" strikes (or strike, themselves), and a "parry" is meant to unbalance the foe and set him or her up for a sweep or throw.

The idea is to take down the opponent to a ground-fight, which is where Judo excels.

In Judo, feet stay on the ground, mostly, to provide balance and stability. You spend a lot of time on leg strength and flexibility so you can get your center of mass low and keep it low.

So, the arm-parry of a low-line kick, followed by a sweep or throw that sets up a lock seems quite correct.

Now then, I'd call it a leg lock and not an arm lock. You'd probably see an opponent's ankle wedged behind the knee of his other leg, as the Judo practitioner leveraged that leg with the other foot to threaten a break or dislocation.

Basically, the attacker winds up face-down on the ground, with one ankle folded into the knee of the other leg, with the second ankle in the hands and under the control of the Judo guy, who can break the ankle and/or dislocate the knee. The Judo guy would also be down on the ground, too -- either back-to-back with the opponent and pulling the ankle down, or using his leg to leverage a push of the opponent's controlled ankle into the opponent's own crotch.

The key concept is that the Judo guy wants to take the opponent to the ground, and twist him or her into a painful or injurious knot. Judo people don't fight while standing for very long.

Hope that helps.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
There's nothing about requiring the parry to be against an arm-driven attack to be able to do an Arm Lock after it?
The idea being that there is an arm or wrist within reaching distance if you've barehand parried your foe, even if you barehand parried their weapon (as long it was a Reach 1 weapon or shorter).


Personally I've always thought it should just be "Limb Lock" and also allow locks of legs after kicks, or even the head/neck. Having three techniques to do one basic set of control locks is... untidy in my opinion.

Quote:
I remember an optional rule like "low line parries" somewhere in martial arts which was a -2 to use arms to parry attacks aimed at the legs, the point of which I assume was to give incentive to using Leg Parry instead.
Low Line Defense. It's specifically for Boxing and Sumo skills, for boxers and sumotori that cross-train to defend against fighters that aren't using their preferred arena skill sets.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
Now then, I'd call it a leg lock and not an arm lock. You'd probably see an opponent's ankle wedged behind the knee of his other leg, as the Judo practitioner leveraged that leg with the other foot to threaten a break or dislocation.
Right, either a Leg Lock or Leg Grapple, the former followed by attempts to cripple the leg, the later by a takedown.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

I thought throws/locks only worked without moving after C-reach weapons and if it was reach 1 you had to take a step forward to be in grappling range to do them. With committed attack, would it work if you took 2 steps forward? Someone doing All Out Attack on their next turn could travel Half Move, so someone with Move 6 might even be able to use it against a reach 3 weapon?
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Old 10-17-2018, 04:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
On martial arts page 123 it says that I can parry with my leg using Karate, Brawling, Boxing, or Sumo, though the last two get a -2 penalty.
My copy doesn't say that, and I don't see anything in the errata about it. It only allows leg parries with Brawling or Karate. ("Use your full Brawling or Karate parry score.") And though I may be reading too much into this, it also mentions that "this parry looks like a kick", suggesting that it is limited to Brawling and Karate because they are the only skills that involve kicking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
On page 122, "What is... a Parry?" it indicates you can count yanking a limb out of the way as a parry.
Again, my copy doesn't say that. It says, "A parry against an attack on your weapon or your hand represents yanking the target out of harm's way", but doesn't suggest that this can be generalized to any other part of the body.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Now for the weird stuff. After parrying the low kick with my hands, I can freely throw my opponent, and it appears that I can stick him in an arm lock without grappling first...
I think that's just an oversight. There are many points in the rules where what they wrote is not quite what they meant, and you just have to work it out. If I were the GM, I would rule that this sets the opponent up for a Judo Throw or Leg Grapple (and it does, by RAW) but not an Arm Lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Is there a RAW way to penalized parrying low kicks with your hands?
Yes. See Low-Line Parries on p. 124, in the "Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters" box.

Incidentally, I think it is rare for any martial art meant for actual self-defense to omit Brawling or Karate. The exceptions should include the Low-Line Defense technique. and the exceptions that don't even include Boxing or Sumo should have Skill Adaptation. Even better, just make Low-Line Defense legal for Wrestling and Judo, since that technique was apparently written assuming those skills would unrealistically be exempt from the penalty to parry low-line attacks.
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I thought throws/locks only worked without moving after C-reach weapons and if it was reach 1 you had to take a step forward to be in grappling range to do them.
The only thing about Reach C weapons in Arm/Wrist Lock is about using a Reach C to perform an Arm/Wrist Lock. Likewise there is no requirement in Judo Throw that the opponent be using a Reach C weapon.

But yes, if you aren't in Close Combat, you have to Step into Close Combat for Arm'Wrist Lock. Judo Throw does not have this requirement.

Quote:
With committed attack, would it work if you took 2 steps forward?
As long as your foe remains within 1 yard of you the whole time (say for instance you're Slipping past your foe while performing an Arm/Wrist Lock or Judo Throw).

Quote:
Someone doing All Out Attack on their next turn could travel Half Move, so someone with Move 6 might even be able to use it against a reach 3 weapon?
As long as your foe was within 1 yard of you when they attacked you and could thus have remained within 1 yard of...

Arm/Wrist Lock implies that your foe must be within 1 yard of you when they make the attack and still within 1 yard when attempt Arm/Wrist Lock or Judo Throw.

Arm/Wrist Lock: "On your first turn following the parry, you may attempt to capture your attacker’s arm if he’s still within one yard."

One the other hand, Judo Throw does not:
"On the turn immediately after a successful Judo parry, you may attempt to throw your attacker if he’s within a yard."



Personally my ruling is: No Judo Throwing someone unless they are within 1 yard of you when they attacked and still within 1 yard of you when you attempt the Judo Throw.

So if they attack you and then take a double Step back (from high speed or whatever) and you Committed Attack into Reach 1, you're golden.

Last edited by evileeyore; 10-17-2018 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I remember an optional rule like "low line parries" somewhere in martial arts which was a -2 to use arms to parry attacks aimed at the legs, the point of which I assume was to give incentive to using Leg Parry instead.
Low Line Defense. It's specifically for Boxing and Sumo skills, for boxers and sumotori that cross-train to defend against fighters that aren't using their preferred arena skill sets.
I found what you were referencing:

Low Line Parries, under the Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters optional rules, pg 124.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Parrying "Low Kicks" With Judo (Martial Arts)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post

(SNIP)

Right, either a Leg Lock or Leg Grapple, the former followed by attempts to cripple the leg, the later by a takedown.
This is right, although I'd restate the sequence as, "Parry, followed by a leg grapple or sweep to the other foot for a take-down, followed by a leg-lock to cripple."
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