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Old 01-07-2018, 08:09 PM   #1
Sorenant
 
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Default Self-Buff Sorcery; Two-Handed Sword and Weapon Fencer; Weapon Default as Technique

Hello all, I have 3 questions and would appreciate any help.

First is from the Sorcerer: How does one make a Sorcery spell that only affects the caster but has non-indefinite duration?
TLDR: How does one model Partial Shapeshift (caster only)?
Long story: The character in question is trying to be the "Dragon Priest" class from another game. This class schtick is essentially a progressive, switchable shapeshift into a dragon. For example, a Dragon Priest can grow sharp claws, hard scale and even wings. The mechanical problem is that, for example, Flight (Winged, Sorcery) would cost 1FP per minute to maintain thus impractical to cover long distances and afflictions can affect others.
In my opinion he should use a tweaked version of Chinese Elemental Powers instead and he mostly agrees but the Swordman of the group became interested in it too and now wants a conjurable sword like Skyrim (which I found PK post about but again it's indefinite duration and the player doesn't want that).
Edit: The complaint about Chinese Elemental Powers is the cost. For example, Katana of Pure Magic would cost about [9] and the Swordsman says he could with just two more points he could either buy a balanced fine katana as Signature Gear or explosively increase his Wealth.
Edit 2: I probably shouldn't add this question here but anyway. If someone with with 3 spells, one costing [20] and the other two being [1] cantrips, wanted to used the two perk level spells at the same time, would he still have to buy the [20] spell at full cost? Should I allow him to buy the cantrips as an advantage instead of spells (like Chinese Elemental Powers)?

Second is from the Swordsman: Is it legal to use Weapon Fencer perk from Pyramid 89 with a two handed sword?
TLDR: Two-handed weapons halves penalty for multiple parries, fencing weapons does the same. Does it stack?
Long story: The Swordsman is actually a Samurai and because of this and the 80%-20% starting money split, he had to make a fairly heavy investment into social advantages like Wealth and Status to reflect his character's background and afford his armor. This made him feel too feeble compared to some other characters (he doesn't have Weapon Master, for one) and while trying to reduce the gap between him and the others he came up to me with the idea of using a Nodachi (Thrusting Greatsword) with Weapon Fencer to enjoy multiple parries. I consider it to be a tweaked version of "Extra Option (Chambara Retreat)" and have no qualms with it but I wonder if it's actually legal.

The third and final question is from me: What breaks if I change weapon defalts into hard techniques?
Long story: I've noticed the Swordsman's character have Two-Handed Sword DX+5 [20] and Broadsword DX+2 [1] thanks to default. Now, the problem with this situation is well known (it's wasteful to improve default instread of main skill) but my google-fu failed to dig out a definitive answer, they've all been vague like: "might work" and "will try". Does anybody have a solution to this conundrum?

Last edited by Sorenant; 01-07-2018 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:42 PM   #2
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Self-Buff Sorcery; Two-Handed Sword and Weapon Fencer; Weapon Default as Techniqu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
First is from the Sorcerer: How does one make a Sorcery spell that only affects the caster but has non-indefinite duration?
TLDR: How does one model Partial Shapeshift (caster only)?
Long story: The character in question is trying to be the "Dragon Priest" class from another game. This class schtick is essentially a progressive, switchable shapeshift into a dragon. For example, a Dragon Priest can grow sharp claws, hard scale and even wings. The mechanical problem is that, for example, Flight (Winged, Sorcery) would cost 1FP per minute to maintain thus impractical to cover long distances and afflictions can affect others.
This sounds less like a spell and more like a "class feature" - if that's the case, I probably wouldn't build it as a spell at all. Give the character Flight (Winged, Switchable), Sharp Claws (Switchable), and so forth, bought at full cost (minus the price of limitations, of course). If they can be dispelled or go away in no-mana areas, they get the Magical limitation as well.

If you're dead-set on them being spells, well, I'd say the answer is simply to build them as Sorcery abilities. The player can't avoid paying more-or-less full price for advantages that are always on. That's the way the system works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
Edit: The complaint about Chinese Elemental Powers is the cost. For example, Katana of Pure Magic would cost about [9] and the Swordsman says he could with just two more points he could either buy a balanced fine katana as Signature Gear or explosively increase his Wealth.
Well, I'd suggest that the player compare the utility, with Weapon of Pure Magic, of having a weapon that can never, ever be lost, is always ready to hand when you need it, and can affect things that are only harmed by magic, against the utility of that katana with Signature Gear. The latter can be lost or taken away - Signature Gear definitely doesn't prevent someone from using the Disarm technique, or capturing you and taking all your stuff. All it does is ensure that the item has "plot protection" - if it is taken away, you'll have the chance to get it back. As for the Wealth, well, that's got even less plot protection - if you lose your masterwork katana that you just bought with wealth, then you'll have to go out and find a new one, and there's no guarantee that it will be easily available.

Also, where's the 9-point cost coming from? The Greatsword of Pure Magic, which is probably the closest to a katana, only costs 4 points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
If someone with with 3 spells, one costing [20] and the other two being [1] cantrips, wanted to used the two perk level spells at the same time, would he still have to buy the [20] spell at full cost?
Well, it's not official for all of Sorcery, but in my article Super-Sorcery in Pyramid #3/105, I suggested a couple of tweaks to the system to help save costs for superhero-magicians using Sorcery, which may work for you here. The first is to make it so that only the levels of Sorcerous Empowerment that equal the cost of the highest point-value spell the sorcerer knows become unavailable - the other levels remain. So, for example, if the sorcerer had Sorcerous Empowerment 2 for 30 points, then when they cast the 20-point spell, the first level of Sorcerous Empowerment would be "tied up", but the remaining level would be available to cast another spell - conveniently exactly enough to throw one of those 1-point cantrips.

The second option I presented was that, in the case of leveled spells, you can pay the full cost of just enough levels to match the cost of the next-most-expensive spell, and then be able to cast the spell simultaneously with others at the level you paid the full cost for, only becoming unable to cast spells simultaneously if you were using the most-expensive spell at higher power. So, for example, if that 20-point spell was actually Sunbolt level 5, the sorcerer could pay the full cost of one level (4 points), and buy the rest of the levels at 1/5th cost, allowing them to throw level 1 Sunbolts silmultaneously with a cantrip, and only losing access to the cantrips if they want to cast a level 2 or higher Sunbolt spell.

Also note that once you've paid the full cost of any spell worth more than 1 point, I think it's fine to say that all the 1-point cantrips are actually bought at full cost, and can thus be all cast simultaneously. Just be aware that if the sorcerer ever buys a spell that costs less than the full cost that they've paid, but more than 1 point, they'll either have to buy it at full cost as well, or accept that if they don't, all their cantrips drop back to being unable to be cast simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
Should I allow him to buy the cantrips as an advantage instead of spells
This is a valid option, I feel. Again, I suggested in Super-Sorcery that sorcerers could purchase advantages with just the Magical -10% limitation, to represent "internalized" spells. I'd suggest limiting the number of these the character can buy, though. 1 cantrip per level of Sorcerous Empowerment sounds about right to me, or maybe 1 per level of Sorcerous Empowerment and Sorcery Talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
Second is from the Swordsman: Is it legal to use Weapon Fencer perk from Pyramid 89 with a two handed sword?
TLDR: Two-handed weapons halves penalty for multiple parries, fencing weapons does the same. Does it stack?
I'd allow Weapon Fencer for two-handed weapons (given its source, it's almost certainly intended - the whole point is to allow samurai types to be super-fencers with their katanas). However, I wouldn't allow the parry penalty reduction to stack here. The two sources are fundamentally different - the fencing parry is from the fact that fencing weapons are quick and easy to move from "attack" into "defense" postures, and easy to move back to a ready defensive posture after being knocked out of line by the force of parrying an attack. Whereas the two-weapon parry penalty reduction is more because you simply have to move the weapon less at all in order to be in a good place to defend - it's bigger, so it covers more area inherently basically.

More significantly, though, is the simple fact that it's unbalanced. Normally, to get double the parry penalty reduction, you have to invest in an expensive advantage, Weapon Master. It's not fair to give that benefit for only 1 point.

Note that the other benefit of a fencing weapon would still apply when wielding a two-handed weapon, however - the bonus to retreats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
The third and final question is from me: What breaks if I change weapon defalts into hard techniques?
Personally, I don't think anything breaks. Defaults between weapons are already... well, not punitive, as such. But the mechanics of buying up from default basically means that almost no-one does it, and it's basically not cost-effective to do it for more than one skill for sure. Making them techniques means it's cost-effective to do it for at least one or two skills, and might encourage someone to do that. I say go for it.
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Old 01-08-2018, 06:31 PM   #3
Sorenant
 
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Default Re: Self-Buff Sorcery; Two-Handed Sword and Weapon Fencer; Weapon Default as Techniqu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
This sounds less like a spell and more like a "class feature" - if that's the case, I probably wouldn't build it as a spell at all. Give the character Flight (Winged, Switchable), Sharp Claws (Switchable), and so forth, bought at full cost (minus the price of limitations, of course). If they can be dispelled or go away in no-mana areas, they get the Magical limitation as well.

If you're dead-set on them being spells, well, I'd say the answer is simply to build them as Sorcery abilities. The player can't avoid paying more-or-less full price for advantages that are always on. That's the way the system works.


Well, it's not official for all of Sorcery, but in my article Super-Sorcery in Pyramid #3/105, I suggested a couple of tweaks to the system to help save costs for superhero-magicians using Sorcery, which may work for you here. The first is to make it so that only the levels of Sorcerous Empowerment that equal the cost of the highest point-value spell the sorcerer knows become unavailable - the other levels remain. So, for example, if the sorcerer had Sorcerous Empowerment 2 for 30 points, then when they cast the 20-point spell, the first level of Sorcerous Empowerment would be "tied up", but the remaining level would be available to cast another spell - conveniently exactly enough to throw one of those 1-point cantrips.

The second option I presented was that, in the case of leveled spells, you can pay the full cost of just enough levels to match the cost of the next-most-expensive spell, and then be able to cast the spell simultaneously with others at the level you paid the full cost for, only becoming unable to cast spells simultaneously if you were using the most-expensive spell at higher power. So, for example, if that 20-point spell was actually Sunbolt level 5, the sorcerer could pay the full cost of one level (4 points), and buy the rest of the levels at 1/5th cost, allowing them to throw level 1 Sunbolts silmultaneously with a cantrip, and only losing access to the cantrips if they want to cast a level 2 or higher Sunbolt spell.
Thanks for the advice. Your optional increases Sorcerer's flexibility which is something I really like. I'll adopt both of it in addition to the
PK's Sorcerer Revisited's buff to indefinite duration spells. It would allow the Sorcerer to fly around for an hour spending "only" 6FP, this should be physically and mentally tiring enough to make him stop and rest (I'm houseruling FP spent on magic can be recovered with Meditation much like Breath Control recover physical FP expenditure) for a while. In addition, thanks to your rule it should be more feasible for him to do get his claws, scales and wings up and use Flying Brick style (which I just noticed was written by you too, nice!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Well, I'd suggest that the player compare the utility, with Weapon of Pure Magic, of having a weapon that can never, ever be lost, is always ready to hand when you need it, and can affect things that are only harmed by magic, against the utility of that katana with Signature Gear. The latter can be lost or taken away - Signature Gear definitely doesn't prevent someone from using the Disarm technique, or capturing you and taking all your stuff. All it does is ensure that the item has "plot protection" - if it is taken away, you'll have the chance to get it back. As for the Wealth, well, that's got even less plot protection - if you lose your masterwork katana that you just bought with wealth, then you'll have to go out and find a new one, and there's no guarantee that it will be easily available.

Also, where's the 9-point cost coming from? The Greatsword of Pure Magic, which is probably the closest to a katana, only costs 4 points.
Sorry, was kinda tired and got a few things messed up. First of all, because I had just commented on Chinese Elemental Powers and just wrote the innate attack's full price. Second, the swordsman actually mentioned some value like 15 (Limited Scope Sorcery + spell cost). I'll present him hte arguments that 1) Very Wealthy steps into kuge/aristrocracy territory rather than a samurai, 2) it's easier to get nice things like Affect Insubstantial with sorcerous sword rather than a physical one and 3) thanks to your optional rule he could later improve his sorcery so he could simultaneously use Imbue on his magical weapon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I'd allow Weapon Fencer for two-handed weapons (given its source, it's almost certainly intended - the whole point is to allow samurai types to be super-fencers with their katanas). However, I wouldn't allow the parry penalty reduction to stack here. The two sources are fundamentally different - the fencing parry is from the fact that fencing weapons are quick and easy to move from "attack" into "defense" postures, and easy to move back to a ready defensive posture after being knocked out of line by the force of parrying an attack. Whereas the two-weapon parry penalty reduction is more because you simply have to move the weapon less at all in order to be in a good place to defend - it's bigger, so it covers more area inherently basically.

More significantly, though, is the simple fact that it's unbalanced. Normally, to get double the parry penalty reduction, you have to invest in an expensive advantage, Weapon Master. It's not fair to give that benefit for only 1 point.

Note that the other benefit of a fencing weapon would still apply when wielding a two-handed weapon, however - the bonus to retreats.
I think he will be a little disappointed but I'll still suggest him to get it. I'll probably have to throw a few foes that uses Deceptive Attacks because of their power level and I'm sure the swordsman would really appreciate his parry bonus in such cases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Personally, I don't think anything breaks. Defaults between weapons are already... well, not punitive, as such. But the mechanics of buying up from default basically means that almost no-one does it, and it's basically not cost-effective to do it for more than one skill for sure. Making them techniques means it's cost-effective to do it for at least one or two skills, and might encourage someone to do that. I say go for it.
Happy to hear that, I'll run it.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:30 PM   #4
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Self-Buff Sorcery; Two-Handed Sword and Weapon Fencer; Weapon Default as Techniqu

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
I'm houseruling FP spent on magic can be recovered with Meditation much like Breath Control recover physical FP expenditure.
This is an excellent idea - I tend to think that every power source that regularly burns energy should have a skill to let users recover spent energy faster. And Meditation needs more uses anyway!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
In addition, thanks to your rule it should be more feasible for him to do get his claws, scales and wings up and use Flying Brick style (which I just noticed was written by you too, nice!).
Heh. Glad it's useful!
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