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Old 06-08-2017, 09:27 AM   #31
Ulairi
 
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Yes, I can see how it might, but weapon speed would need a lot of work to port over to GURPS. As is, weapon speed would probably have caused people to pay less attention.

If your weapon speed is 6, for the next five turns, you have nothing to do before you can strike again. Whereas under current GURPS rules you could, on average, have made a defense on the turn you made your initial strike (attack) and made five further attacks and five further defenses during those five turns.

I know which condition I'd find more interesting and more liable to keep my attention on the game (It's the same condition for both, getting the opportunity to do something every one second turn.)
You can still do things in HackMaster while you're waiting for your weapon speed to come up. Players don't have to. Keep in mind, that the opponents are acting to and HackMAster uses an opposed roll for defense so, I've found it to keep players much more involved in combat compared to the traditional D&D systems.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:29 AM   #32
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by baakyocalder View Post
HackMaster combat speed presumes that the attacker is also defending. Movement can happen during combat, so while a PC may not be tap-dancing, they may be circling about a foe.

You also have hold-at-bay with polearms and ranged weapons. For firearms, while the time scale is different, Aces & Eights: Shattered Frontier introduce the Count System.

Keep in mind that in HackMaster, there are talents and specialization which speed up your attack speed.

Some of the talents in HackMaster would nicely simulate the more complex actions available in GURPS combat.

I think if you take into account weapons that become unbalanced after parries, some of the issues will be smaller.

However, since you're rolling 3d6 for attacks and defenses in GURPS and a d20 for attacks and defenses in HackMaster, you'll have more swing in the HackMaster rules than using 3d6 due to dice spreads.

I like GURPS and I like HackMaster, but it would be a lot of work to make the combat systems mesh well.
It's always neat to see the person that first introduced me to GURPS posting on the SJ Games forum.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:24 AM   #33
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The last edition I saw still claimed to be the work of Gary Jackson and still had art by Blackburn. No idea what edition that was.
5E even has the actual Knights demonstrating the combat system in comic form (which, by the way, is one of the best play examples I've ever seen). And yes, Gary Jackson and groin stomps (they ditched "gawds", though).

But to me, that seems just allusions to its backstory (both fictional and real), I don't see any system component as a straight-forward parody.

Then again, I'm German. That humor thing is still strange and new to me.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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5E even has the actual Knights demonstrating the combat system in comic form (which, by the way, is one of the best play examples I've ever seen). And yes, Gary Jackson and groin stomps (they ditched "gawds", though).

But to me, that seems just allusions to its backstory (both fictional and real), I don't see any system component as a straight-forward parody.

Then again, I'm German. That humor thing is still strange and new to me.
The HackMaster edition which had a lot of parody elements was all in softcover (except Goods and Gear) and used AD&D 2e under license. Using the parody was part of the license requirement, but that version of HackMaster is basically a heavily house-ruled AD&D 2e.

The current version of HackMaster was built from the ground-up and while there are some jokes in there, there are not joke rules. The rules were extensively playtested in open playtests--6 months for the Player's Handbook. The rules aren't GURPS, but they are closer to GURPS since it's opposed attack and defense rules with a lot of tactical options if you use the PHB. HackMaster Basic Free is analogous to GURPS Lite--it will let you do most of what the full game does at zero monetary outlay to you but doesn't have as many dials to play with.

Here's the official history of HackMaster to clear up misconceptions.

http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/p...er_history.pdf
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Old 06-08-2017, 01:01 PM   #35
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Here's the official history of HackMaster to clear up misconceptions.

http://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/p...er_history.pdf
And some more details and comments about Aces and Eights, Hackmaster, and some of Kenzer's design goals and philosophy here:

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Old 06-08-2017, 02:31 PM   #36
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

I'd call the 'History of HackMaster' a more polished piece discussing the game line. It's fairly accurate historically, but has clearly been touched by the marketing department.

The Gaming Ballistic Interview is a conversation between Douglas Cole and David Kenzer about many things Kenzer & Company. Was there any transcript from the first attempt which also included Jolly Blackburn and Steve Johanson, or does that fall into the realm of 'Things Man Was Not Meant to Know?'
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Old 06-08-2017, 03:37 PM   #37
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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The concept is simple. GLAIVE's attack time rule, in a nutshell, is just this: What's the effective mass to be moved? And what's your effective power for moving it? The ratio of that effective mass to effective power yields the time an attack takes (i.e., its "slowness").

The question, then, becomes what measures to use for that effective mass and that effective power.

The easiest answer for the former is some measure that's linear in weapon mass in lbs. There, that's a good measure of effective mass for thrusts. For swings, you'll want to multiply it somehow for length, and again somehow for unbalance (effectively building moment of inertia into the measure). There, a measure of effective mass for swings.

For effective power... well, ST seems the easy answer, but be careful. GURPS 4e ST doesn't linearly map to ability to move mass; Basic Lift does. So, use Basic Lift together with the above measure of effective mass. OR, use regular ST, and use a measure of effective mass that's based on the square root of weapon mass in lbs. Either way should work.

Finally, note that the power available to the wielder isn't fixed; it can change with something as simple as using two hands instead of one. So you'll want to modify effective power by some appropriate amount for factors like that.

And there you go: You take some measure of effective weapon mass, divide it by some appropriate measure of effective power to move the mass, and you have a result you can tie to "time it takes to attack"...


...Also, for 4e, I think I'd ditch the use of a Recovery that's linear with lbs., and, as noted above, make it map to the square root of lbs. Yes, "square root" makes some people cringe, but we're talking a one-time calculation of a speed factor for weapon tables, not calculation of roots during play. The upside is that you can then use plain ST for all purposes: figuring damage from ST, comparing ST to Min ST (or Wield ST or whatever you call it) to make sure the character can use the weapon, and dividing Recovery by ST to get some measure of time required. Basic Lift can keep completely out of weapon performance. (The wee downside to the method: the Recovery stat for many weapons will appear as figures with decimals, not neat integers.)
Again, very useful insights. I read your GLAIVE system again and hopefully understood it a little better. Following your suggestions, I so far came up with some results that seem to fit the bill. This is what I did:
  • Calculated each weapon weight square root
  • Multiplied it by 15 (I tried other values, 15 seemed to give enough variety between each recovery value, without making the delay between attacks too long - I may tweak this a little more), and then divided by user ST.
  • The results are displayed here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!AmLagTm32rl2gb1M5kjRZ7LSF-2tXg . Values should be rounded up.
  • Some tidbits: A ST 10 human can attack with a short sword evey 2 seconds (I remember aiming for 3 or 4). ST 10 can attack with a halberd every 6 seconds.
  • Limitations: attacking every second becomes possible only at ST 15, and then again, only with 1 pound weapons. There is no differentiation, as of yet, for One handed usage vs two handed, or thrust vs swings, or ST < MIN ST.
    These should achievable using some multipliers, similar as TBONE outlines on his GLAIVE article. I'm inclined to make one handed vs two handed have an impact, though not so sure about the others (they are completely reasonable, but the vanilla rules make no distinction between them on how often they allow you to attack). I suppose better damage and risking more fatigue might be enough differentiation for me.

I think now I'll try to fit muscle powered ranged weapons into the mix. If I have some time on the weekend I'll try to stage some testing combats to see how it goes, namely, how my preliminary rates of movement will work with these recovery values (also on the spreadsheet above). I have to say, I'm so far very happy with what you guys helped me come up with!
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:50 PM   #38
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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Originally Posted by baakyocalder View Post
I'd call the 'History of HackMaster' a more polished piece discussing the game line. It's fairly accurate historically, but has clearly been touched by the marketing department.

The Gaming Ballistic Interview is a conversation between Douglas Cole and David Kenzer about many things Kenzer & Company. Was there any transcript from the first attempt which also included Jolly Blackburn and Steve Johanson, or does that fall into the realm of 'Things Man Was Not Meant to Know?'
Alas, no. We had all video, no audio. Nothing to transcribe.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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[*] Some tidbits: A ST 10 human can attack with a short sword evey 2 seconds (I remember aiming for 3 or 4). ST 10 can attack with a halberd every 6 seconds.
Needless to say, these are very slow speeds for GURPS – but if those Hackmaster-like speeds are your design goal, then that's a good thing.

You'll no doubt have noticed that there's more to be done, though. If you haven't tackled these already:
  • In your hybrid system, what is the GURPS fighter with an attack speed of (say) "every 4 seconds" doing on those three no-action seconds? Are those explicitly Ready maneuvers? In a GURPS fight, what maneuver the fighter is assumed to have chosen is an important thing...
  • What is and isn't the fighter allowed to do on those three no-action seconds? Can he freely take Move maneuvers (or, as above, is he taking Ready maneuvers that limit him to a Step)? Can he defend without "disrupting" the in-progress attack? If so, does that include the ability to Parry with the same weapon? (How would parrying work, anyway? Is that also once per 4 seconds?)
  • How would Rapid Strike work? Does the selection of Rapid Strike mean the fighter now attacks every 2 seconds? Or does he still wait til the 4th second, and then instantly attack twice?

And probably much more. I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that there'll be a lot of details to work out.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding Hackmaster, and therefore your hybrid as well. Assume Mr "Every 4 Sec" Hackmaster fighter strikes on Second 10, and wants to keep on doing so.

I'm imagining that he attacks on Second 10, immediately announces "I attack again!", spend Seconds 11, 12, and 13 making or preparing that next attack (which presumably places some limits on what else he can do), and finally launches that next attack on Second 14. Is that how HM works?

Or are attacks in HM instead more of a "recharge" thing, like a video game: The fighter strikes on Second 10, is free to do what he likes (except attack) on Seconds 11, 12, and 13, and then becomes free to do what he likes (including attack) on Second 14 or later?
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Old 06-09-2017, 04:08 AM   #40
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Default Re: Combining GURPS and Hackmaster combat system?

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If you break turns down into fractional seconds, everything becomes tick-tick-tick in a way I suspect would become unplayable. How do you handle movement when a turn is a tenth of a second?
From my reading of Aces & Eights, not very well. I think GURPS has the right kind of compromise at this level of detail. Obviously all games abstract elements or compromise "realism" vs playability, but oddly Aces & Eights & Hackmaster end up with different weights even though they are fundamentally based on the same system. Aces and Eights stresses the "realism" of fractions of a second mattering in a gunfight, but then is barely playable when it comes to dealing with movement, while as I think Hackmaster is a more playable compromise, but then ends up with a rather unrealistic slow speed of combat (though this comes from trying to emphasise the "realism" of differing "speeds" of weapons).

Having read Hackmaster (5th/2nd Edition) I actually find the humour of the book... indicative of a lack of humour. The jokes came across to me as the kind of "It was only meant as a joke" humour, when someone is using it to cover the fact it isn't really a joke. The designers actually seem very invested in the system (which would not surprise me, as it started its life in Aces and Eights, which is not a parody game), and consequently seem quite defensive about it. Now, I could be misreading it, and that air I get is actually meant to be a joke in itself, and to be fair I can't think the d10,000 critical table in the Games Master Guide could be designed with any serious intention of using them in play.
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