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Old 08-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #11
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
I get that in real life. What I was shooting for (but did not state explicitly) was that the team can be currently lead by an NCO due to the officer being dead (field replacement) or because the players are a team split off from another (thusly the officer is elsewhere). Is this something that would be detrimental?
Ah - I understand! I would not base anything on possible temporary conditions unless there is a reason why a replacement officer would not be possible. There are three common operational models in special operations. For SEALs, a 16-man platoon can be split into two 8-man boat crews*, but each platoon has at least 2 officers so outside special temporary circumstances there is always an officer in charge. For Special Forces, a 12-man ODA (A-Team) can be split into two 6-man teams*, with one led by the O-3 in charge of the team and the other led by the warrant officer who is 2nd in command. For Delta, officers stay out of the field as much as possible, and teams are tactically led entirely by NCO's.

So pick a model and stick with it, but note that even for SF the commissioned and warrant officers are NOT interchangeable - the Captain is in charge of BOTH teams. In your case, that would mean that an NCO would just have the PC team, while an officer would ALSO have some other team(s) somewhere else.

*: SEALs and SF always plan skills so that they can be split, so each sub-team always has a full skillset. This means (for example) that an ODA has 2 medics, 2 engineering sergeants, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
This is a good point. I was originally going to make a hard-and-fast roster for the different roles (currently only Mage and "Leader" is hard and fast), but I was concerned it would step on toes too much. The basic template covers all the roles a squad requires, so fulfilling those "basic required" roles is really just a matter of picking up the right equipment. If it were just writing or even if they were standard grunts I'd go for a directly lifted organization table, but in this case I'm kind of willing to fudge it a bit so everyone can play the kind of soldier they want.
I would make three lists. The first list is tactical, all the combat roles you want everyone to have - for a 6-man team, this might be 3 riflemen, 1 machinegunner, 1 grenadier, and 1 sniper. The second list is primary functional, all the vital and exclusive non-combat roles (MOS, in some cases) - for a 6-man team this might be intel/command, demo, weapons, communications, medic, and magical ops. The third list is secondary functional, all the still important roles that SOMEONE needs to fill - specific languages, vehicle operation, whatever you want.

Then tell the players - each of you needs to pick one from each of lists 1 and 2, and should probably have everything on list 3 somehow spread between you. Mix em as you choose otherwise - SEALs have guys who are sniper medics, or machinegunning intel specialists.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
That was part of the original SEAL template. I was also kind of sketchy about it, thinking maybe I should drop it for a single point in like, primitive weapon making (survival school), but I wasn't sure. Do you think that one should certainly get the axe?
I would certainly at least drop it down to a single point, and dropping it altogether would not be out of line. The only forces that I know that really would have this is SF Weapons Sergeants, who are expected to maintain and repair weapons behind enemy lines.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Yes, and I was going to make it mandatory. However, I think you get a -2 default on the thing from Rifle, so even if you don't take a point in it, you're probably still pretty good with a pistol regardless. I think anyone who puts a point into it is just that much better. Is this a bad way of thinking?
Yes. Default means that they don't shoot pistol regularly, but they understand the principles. It also means that they cannot have techniques off of them or perform secondary functions like maintenance. This is not how special ops works. Operators train heavily with pistols and use them extensively in the field for a variety of reasons. They should have at least a point in any weapon they are going to carry and use on a regular basis.

Note that Knife could possibly be at default - the goal in special ops knife-fighting is attack from surprise and grapple first, not to go toe to toe with a similarly armed assailant.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Good point. To be honest I don't know why HALO/HAHO even has such a giant default gap. I've never been diving but I can't imagine HALO is -that- much more difficult than just regular jumping. They are para-certified, though, so more points in the core skill's a good idea.
HALO is substantially different than regular parachuting, and is much more difficult. Of note, most special ops are NOT HALO/HAHO (aka "Free-Fall") qualified, it is only something like 25% of SF and 50% of SEALs.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
I like bikes :D I had an extra point laying about when I made the cuts from the SEAL template and did some skill additions. I was originally looking at dropping it in another 1 point skill and raising it a level, but then I remembered this thing: Montague Paratrooper Folding Bike.
That is a niche item with limited utility. In the real world, they might assemble a team who already had Bicycle at least at the Dabbler level, and give them to them without additional training. It would not ever be uniform.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
They are ripped right out of the Ratings from SEALs. I intended to make them easily recognizable add-on packages for guys who wanted to fulfill a certain role (like MG, Anti-tank, radio guy) but be noticeably better than if he had just taken the base template's skills in that role. Everyone in the squad can basically do everything, but if you wanted to be better at that role, you'd take the add on. Make sense? Or am I going about that the wrong way?
You have to understand that the SEALs are different in that they draw their enlisted from generally non-combat roles in the Navy, so prior to becoming a SEAL they will have been Torpedomen, or Electronics Technicians, or Rescue Divers, or ... whatever. This is NOT the case for Army and Marine Corps special operations, where the vast majority come from infantry roles and have no other training. So I would ignore the Ratings unless you are planning on a direct parallel to SEALs, in which case your template needs more aquatic skills!

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Absolutely true. I'm hiding behind Rule of Cool with the bigger MG's. I think the 7.62GPMG that the Army/Marines use is under Gunner, rather than LMG, though. I'm pretty sure Special Forces (i.e. Green Berets) use it, too.
If it can be carried and used by one ordinary, unassisted man, then it uses Guns. Gunner is for weapons fired from a mount, and that defines weapons not generally useful in special ops.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
I'll double check the points cost. It exists for someone who wants to be the computer hacker type. Might come up in a mission, to deactivate security, steal info, etc. Probably a little out of the bounds of real life GB's, maybe, but I am not sure.
The Rating you are referencing is not a hacker, it is the IT guy. Hackers are normally intel, not special ops. If you want/need a hacker, there should be Computer Hacking at a decent level, probably more than 4 points for the package.

I was mostly just questioning your math, though.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Why's that?
In EVERY branch of special operations (and in the regular military as well!) military communications specialists learn repair as well as operation. I have an old friend who is SF, and he said if his Comms Sergeant was on Gilligan's Island with just two coconuts and some string, he would have satellite contact within the hour.

I don't think he came up with that, he isn't that witty a guy, but it illustrates the point.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
So just one point then? I was thinking it would be for Recon missions.
Snipers and other dedicated recon units should have a point in Photography, more probably overstates the amount of training they either want or need. They aren't aiming for a gallery opening, they just want enough contrast and focus to make everything out. SEAL snipers get about 2 weeks of photo intel training, regular SEALs get none at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Guy who can fix some electronic goods / disable electronic goods / deploy electronic goods. I was thinking about making Operation the main skill, which gives you a better default down to Repair than the other way around ... which makes no sense to me.
If it is not something they use on a regular basis (like Comms) they will not train someone to do it. Specialists like you describe are not a good match to special ops.

To Be Continued...
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:38 PM   #12
cosmicfish
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
It's part of the SEALs Officer lens. I cut a lot of stuff out, but I still don't feel good about the lens. Should it just be focusing on improving skills? I think the Research is to find out stuff about the op area, and Writing to do requisitions and After Actions.
Most writing is formulaic, not needing any significant training. Likewise, most research is performed by OTHER people, a special ops officer can be happy with defaults off of other skills. In special ops, most officers do not receive significantly more training that enlisted, if any at all. The rest of the skills look fine, although I think 4 points is adequate to portray a bachelors degree.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Rule of Cool :D Well, you're probably right. Should I reimplemented the Beretta 9mm? I was mostly just giving some options for cool stuff.
Bear in mind that intercompatibility is a big deal for special ops. Two different pistol calibers (much less 3!) means that you cannot borrow clips from your buddy, something that happens A LOT. It is pretty rare for teams to have more than one caliber in any particle weapon type (pistol, carbine, rifle, shotgun, grenade).
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Old 08-15-2013, 04:43 PM   #13
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Which is weird to me. Same with high pain threshold.
They are things that are hard and (in the latter case) unethical to observe in a training environment. Besides which, special ops is based around tactics that require neither - ambush, shoot them before they know you are there and/or with superior tactics and skill, and then get out of Dodge.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Sabre, actually, and smallsword. The roots of this setting (light as it is) lie in several older projects wherein the Mages who rule over us were more like 17th/18th/19th century social elites, where they were very cultural and settle disputes with fencing bouts and the like. Which...is a little weird considering they have MAGIC, but maybe it's a principal thing. I just like the idea of the gentleman battlewizard defending his honour with a blade, for some reason.
The problem with swords on the modern battlefield is that modern armor and equipment are not designed for the kind of mobility necessary for real swordplay, and could not be designed for such without making them substantially less effective. If you want to make it a social weapon used away from the battlefield, that is fine!
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:37 PM   #14
Cheomesh
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

Well all that makes sense. I'll start making my edits shortly, dropping stuff and adding others. Are you military by chance?

Regarding "ratings" and "roles", if I am reading you correctly I should be cutting the Electronics and IT guys out, maybe adding in a "hacker" one (movie style SF ops), then using the chart in order to make sure all essential roles are filled?

And you quite surprised me about SEALs coming from non-combat backgrounds! Growing up, SEAL was a by-word for "popup out of the punch bowl and kill you dead". My goal is to make it more like Green Berets - combat spec ops types. Maybe verging more towards a bit of heroic realism so it plays well with action.

Like a lot of "PC" groups, they're going to be nebulously "soldiers" (like NCIS main characters nebulously being "law guys") and will do missions from recon to kicking down the door and killing every mook in the room (keeps it interesting for the game). That's what I'm trying to simulate with all those packages. So your changes above would make them more accurately like combat-unit originating SF guys?

As for swords on the modern battlefield, totally feel you there. The machete, perhaps, because I'd imagine you'd have to hump one anyways. Judo and Brawling were taken right from MCMAP. Originally their military HTH was just MCMAP template with shortsword added.

Officers would have shortsword (if it was part of the style in full and not just optional), but what I was referencing with smallsword was that many of them would probably partake in training in OCS/College because of it's association with the Magocrats/ruling class. Because you are part of the Army, you are of objectively better social standing than a civilian, even better if an officer, and anything that lets you emulate the ruling class a bit more is something handy.

Thanks again!

M.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:06 PM   #15
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
Bear in mind that intercompatibility is a big deal for special ops. Two different pistol calibers (much less 3!) means that you cannot borrow clips from your buddy, something that happens A LOT. It is pretty rare for teams to have more than one caliber in any particle weapon type (pistol, carbine, rifle, shotgun, grenade).
I think some real world special ops units allow their members great freedom, when it comes to selecting weapons.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:09 PM   #16
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

As for Combat Reflexes, it makes sense to me that any special ops guys who train a lot of Close-Quarters-Combat has it, given that GURPS does nothing to imply that it is a difficult trait to acquire. Indeed it is deliberately discounted in cost relative to how useful it is, and is explicitly learnable, and has been so ever since (at least) 3rd Edition.

So, maybe not regular SEALs and Special Forces, but certainly in DEVGRU and Delta Force everyone should have it, due to the kinds of training they do.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:19 PM   #17
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
I think some real world special ops units allow their members great freedom, when it comes to selecting weapons.
Yes and no. SF and SEALs have some freedom, but largely operate within a weapon set that is already caliber-limited in the way I described. You really have to go to Delta and DEVGRU to get the kind of flexibility you described, and even then it is only under very specific circumstances where they can exercise it.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:22 PM   #18
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
So, maybe not regular SEALs and Special Forces, but certainly in DEVGRU and Delta Force everyone should have it, due to the kinds of training they do.
With those units I agree, but not because of the training - for DEVGRU and (I am pretty sure) Delta, they are recruiting from combat-experienced individuals, which means that their Combat Reflexes and HPT are known to the assessors.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:37 PM   #19
cosmicfish
 
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Are you military by chance?
No, although there are some on here who were or perhaps even still are. I come from a military family and work with the military professionally, which has given me a chance to observe some things quite well. Nothing I discuss on here is particularly hard to find, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Regarding "ratings" and "roles", if I am reading you correctly I should be cutting the Electronics and IT guys out, maybe adding in a "hacker" one (movie style SF ops), then using the chart in order to make sure all essential roles are filled?
If you have need for a hacker, then yes, include it under either list 2 or 3 (depending on how important it is - list 2 is for training important and consistently needed enough to demand high effort, while list 3 is either less-important or just less frequently needed). I would let the players negotiate between themselves to see who gets what - GM assigned or "first come, first served" won't work well here.

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
And you quite surprised me about SEALs coming from non-combat backgrounds! Growing up, SEAL was a by-word for "popup out of the punch bowl and kill you dead". My goal is to make it more like Green Berets - combat spec ops types. Maybe verging more towards a bit of heroic realism so it plays well with action.
In the US Navy, you cannot start off with the SEAL designation. You enlist and are assigned a career path, could be any job in the Navy*, and that becomes your rating**. If you are joining in the last few years, you can enter under a program that takes you from basic training essentially straight into the SEAL pipeline, and if you pass then that is it. But if you do NOT go straight into SEAL training, or if you need to repeat it, then you will spend time training in and performing that initial non-SEAL job. Given the vast difference in skill sets between the SEALs and the vast majority of the Navy, it is likely that your role then will be "non-combat" (in so far as any Navy job is!).

*: It should be noted that you can come from any field in the Navy, but hospital corpsmen are automatically trained as medics in the SEALs.

**: Until very recently, SEALs retained their old rating titles even if they never actually served in that capacity, so you could have a Torpedoman 1st Class (SEAL) who has been promoted 4 times since the last time he touched a torpedo!

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Originally Posted by Cheomesh View Post
Like a lot of "PC" groups, they're going to be nebulously "soldiers" (like NCIS main characters nebulously being "law guys") and will do missions from recon to kicking down the door and killing every mook in the room (keeps it interesting for the game). That's what I'm trying to simulate with all those packages. So your changes above would make them more accurately like combat-unit originating SF guys?
If they are currently serving, then yes. If they are former special ops, then you might see gaps and overlaps in the training, since their team is formed less by careful planning than by other factors.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:58 PM   #20
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: My Spec Ops template

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Yes and no. SF and SEALs have some freedom, but largely operate within a weapon set that is already caliber-limited in the way I described. You really have to go to Delta and DEVGRU to get the kind of flexibility you described, and even then it is only under very specific circumstances where they can exercise it.
Part of the reason may be typical mission duration. If CQB-focused and trained for hostage rescue, all missions are expected a few hours, so resupply is less important, compared to Special Forces in particular whose primary mission (or original mission, anyway) was to operate behind enemy lines, training guerillas for months at a time.
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