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Old 06-26-2014, 12:24 AM   #31
Dustin
 
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
A magazine is a container of cartridges.
It's more than just a box, though -- it feeds them out with a spring and interfaces with certain guns. It's an Object in a way that a crate of grasshoppers or bag of emeralds isn't.

Would you disallow a Duplicated pen from leaving an ink trail? A Duplicated scuba tank from dispensing air?
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:00 AM   #32
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
My point is that it's silly to take the gun safety rules as a literal description of how firearms behave in the real world. You don't even do that when you are following them; it's basically a figure of speech. If it was literal then you'd never actually load a weapon, or be able to "Unload. Show Clear." I'm objecting to taking a figure of speech literally and expecting sensible results.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just really sensitive to people deliberately misunderstanding weapons safety instructions.
I think you're a bit oversensitive actually. It has made you hyper-focus on one statement I made and take it out of context. The subject in question was about one's expectations of a gun, and the safety rule certainly shapes my expectations. I was responding to the assertion that the word "gun" does not include bullets. My responses was essentially-

"When I picture a gun I picture bullets in it. Here are some reasons why. Oh, and an anecdotal reason."

In short, Genesis was right about my reason for saying it.


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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Does Create Servants always produce guys with OSHA approved safety vests and hardhats?
The point of my post was that the caster's expectation of the object would likely determine the type of object created. And since the Create Servants spell literally says "The caster determines the servant’s appearance." then yes, if the caster thinks they should wear them, the spell would totally make a servant with a vest and hardhat, or one that looked like a genie, or a french maid.





As for separating objects, I think the object needs to say in contact with a living thing, or with another component of the summoned object. So a pen could write a line without the trailing end disappearing, but once you lifted the pen from the paper the whole line would disappear.

The main question of the thread was supposed to be about how quickly that object disappears. It is quick to be sure, but is there enough time for a bullet to reach a nearby target? I stated that I decided, for the purposes of my campaign, that it could. I don't consider it game breaking because of the time it would take to use, and that you could do more damage with most other spells for similar cost. Were I running a higher TL campaign I would probably change that ruling.

I wasn't even asking to be corrected, because I knew I was most likely stretching the rules. I was simply curious if anyone knew of actual errata that stated it more clearly, or had anything interesting to say. I don't consider a simple post of "you're wrong" (after I already said that I probably was) to be "interesting" unless it provides further evidence than what I already said in the opening post.

Last edited by Pluribus; 06-26-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:49 AM   #33
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
It's more than just a box, though -- it feeds them out with a spring and interfaces with certain guns. It's an Object in a way that a crate of grasshoppers or bag of emeralds isn't.

Would you disallow a Duplicated pen from leaving an ink trail? A Duplicated scuba tank from dispensing air?
Sure. Indeed by analogy to the non-nourishing food, the air tank probably ought to dispense non-breathable air even if the air *does* remain in contact.
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Old 06-26-2014, 03:56 PM   #34
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

Didn't read all pages, so sorry if this has been said already, but load a gun with everything but the projectile (i.e. powder, patch), then duplicate that and just load a projectile into each copy. The real projectile won't disappear.
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:13 PM   #35
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by Pahn View Post
Didn't read all pages, so sorry if this has been said already, but load a gun with everything but the projectile (i.e. powder, patch), then duplicate that and just load a projectile into each copy. The real projectile won't disappear.
Or you could use Cornucopia and have it last a minute.
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:08 PM   #36
Pluribus
 
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by Pahn View Post
Didn't read all pages, so sorry if this has been said already, but load a gun with everything but the projectile (i.e. powder, patch), then duplicate that and just load a projectile into each copy. The real projectile won't disappear.
That's an interesting idea. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the black powder firearm loading process. I don't know how long just loading the bullet would take, or if that is even a viable approach. As far as I know the bullet still has to be loaded with a... stick of some sort (don't know what to call it), and seems like it would be one of the time consuming parts of the loading anyway.

Ooo, or maybe we could take a page from that gunhands power and create the gun around the bullet, so it's already in place.

If someone does know more about this I would be interested to hear.
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Old 06-26-2014, 07:17 PM   #37
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
Would you disallow a Duplicated pen from leaving an ink trail? A Duplicated scuba tank from dispensing air?
I'd disallow both of those following the same line of thought that would lead to Duplicated bullets being of little use. They all should vanish once they exit the created container.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:02 PM   #38
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
I'd disallow both of those following the same line of thought that would lead to Duplicated bullets being of little use. They all should vanish once they exit the created container.
Agreed. Magic Items 3 had a "never-empty" revolver in it, and that used a variant of Cornucopia rather than Duplicate. So there is precedent here. It seems clear that Duplicate is specifically "nerfed" to prevent persistent anythings, and don't see how bullets, usable air, ink, arrows, or anything else would be an exception.

If you want to drag real-world physics into it, photons, being quantum physics objects, are produced and can travel normally, but any macroscopic objects cannot. And yes, this means that I could accept a Duplicated laser pistol still working normally! (If you're mixing magic and ultra-tech, you'd better be prepared for Ultimate Munchkinism.)

A couple quick notes: a magazine or clip *is* simply a container. Just because many have springs for retention or feeding is irrelevant, as many older models are just boxes. (For example, Dr. Gatling's later designs used gravity-feed, and thus the ammo literally just fell out of the magazines and into the guns.) Loading black powder weapons is an involved process, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELnCF37Kug that video for a quick rundown for a modern weapon; older models are very similar in the broad strokes.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:40 PM   #39
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Agreed. Magic Items 3 had a "never-empty" revolver in it, and that used a variant of Cornucopia rather than Duplicate. .
The coding on that one has it as "apparently Holy".

In 4e you could accomplish it with Path/Book magic, Unlimited Ammo Ritual p.148 of Thaumatology. To make it permanent you'd use the Fetish rules.

There were a couple of items in earlier volumes of Magic Items that used Cornucopia or at least appeared to.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:15 PM   #40
ColBosch
 
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Default Re: create object/duplicate on firearms

Sadly, I lack Thaumatology. Too long a book for me to want in PDF, and far too expensive on the secondary market.
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