Steve Jackson Games Forums T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)
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08-18-2015, 05:59 PM   #1
Magesmiley

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

So, I thought it might be worthwhile to hash out a couple of wonky places in the 4th edition (that's Compendium and Classic) maneuvering rules where things might be a bit cloudy or not quite right. (This thread has nothing to do with 6E maneuvers, so please don't confuse them).

From the Car Wars Compendium (Scott gave me an ok to paste this quote)
Quote:
 T-Stop This is an extreme maneuver used for emergency deceleration. It consists of rotating your car 90° to either side and moving forward one inch – identical to beginning a roll. See Figure 7. The car then continues skidding sideways until it slows to a halt. The vehicle decelerates 20 mph per inch of movement. Each tire will take 1 point of damage for every full 20 mph of speed lost, immediately after each movement phase. The difﬁculty of this maneuver is a D1 for every 10 mph of deceleration, and the control roll is made when the maneuver is begun If the control roll is missed, add 1 to the Crash Table roll for every 20 mph (or fraction thereof) of deceleration – in addition to the regular speed modiﬁer (based on the vehicle’s original speed) on the Control Table. Once a vehicle starts a T-Stop, it can’t ﬁre aimed weapons. Only vehicles which can perform a bootlegger can perform a T-Stop
So how is this really supposed to work? As I pointed out in another thread: You don't decelerate until you move. The difficulty is based on your deceleration. And you make the roll at the start of the maneuver. At which point you've decelerated 0.

Are you making the maneuver for the entire amount of deceleration you will eventually do (i.e. 60 mph when you start = D6)? Or is this intended to be a per phase maneuver with the amount you'll decelerate that phase?

Does the crash table modifier count the deceleration you've done so far or the amount you will eventually do?

The clause for the tire damage seems to indicate that you get to move the entire amount for the phase before your tires get hurt too. I.e. if you're moving twice in the phase, you take the 2 tire hits after you've completed both moves, even if you only have 1 DP left on the tires (I can live with this one).

There's also the diagram on how to perform this, which doesn't match up with the description above. The diagram moved the car 1.5" forward, when it should only be 1".

I've got some thoughts on how to clean the maneuver up, but I'd like to see what everyone else thinks about how this should work first.

Bonus wackiness: the bootlegger reverse actually moves a car forward 3" in two moves.
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Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!

 08-19-2015, 07:30 AM #2 Magesmiley MIB   Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Snohomish, WA Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness) There is a difference between what is in the Compendium and the Advanced Maneuvering System article in ADQ 5/1 (where the T-Stop first appeared): The sentence: "The difﬁculty of this maneuver is a D1 for every 10 mph of deceleration, and the control roll is made when the maneuver is begun." Originally read: "The hazard for the maneuver is D1 for every 10 mph of deceleration." This seems to suggest that the original intent was a D1 maneuver every time the car made a move. Which was ok back then - the clause limiting to one maneuver per phase hadn't been introduced yet. My suspicion is that this was an attempt to edit and clarify that didn't work out too well. __________________ Dynamax Designs, Designing quality since 2035. Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!
 08-19-2015, 10:21 AM #3 brionl   Join Date: Jul 2013 Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness) Since it is a T-Stop, you know what your deceleration is going to be when you start your maneuver. It's the speed you were going when you started. If you were going 50mph, it's a D5 maneuver.
 08-19-2015, 02:33 PM #4 swordtart   Join Date: Jun 2008 Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness) Same here, difficulty is based on the total deceleration that would occur. If the control roll is missed, add 1 to the Crash Table roll for every 20 mph (or fraction thereof) of deceleration – in addition to the regular speed modiﬁer (based on the vehicle’s original speed) on the Control Table. I wonder if this should be revised since we now add the difficulty of the manoeuvre -3 to the crash table result. When this originally came in the roll was only adjusted for speed. The wording above makes it a double whammy. How about the pivot? To do a permitted 180 degree about face, the front of the car moves half the circumference of a circle with radius 1" or over 3" where it would only get 1/2" straight line movement.
08-20-2015, 11:37 AM   #5
Magesmiley

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by swordtart Same here, difficulty is based on the total deceleration that would occur.
And that's how I think most play it. Another interpretation might be to treat each phase of deceleration as a maneuver and make the roll for the amount decelerated during that phase.

The key thing is to actually fix the text so that it is clear that is how it works. Either base the numbers off of your speed or make it clear that it is a series of rolls.

Rolling before the maneuver also seems wrong - no other maneuver in the game does this . And if you lose control, are you going to apply that effect from the position you're in before you've even made the maneuver?

Which actually leads me to another slew of strangeness: what about when you do lose control (either due to the maneuver or hitting a hazard)? The behavior for spinouts and above seem obvious. But a skid? You're already skidding and taking tire damage. I'm pretty sure that a skid is going to look just like a continuation of the T-Stop.

The fishtail poses some interesting questions too: are you going to keep skidding in your original direction of travel after a fishtail (with the vehicle no longer perpendicular) or will it now be a different direction than what you were doing before? What if you actually fishtail enough that you're facing forward (or backwards)?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by swordtart If the control roll is missed, add 1 to the Crash Table roll for every 20 mph (or fraction thereof) of deceleration – in addition to the regular speed modiﬁer (based on the vehicle’s original speed) on the Control Table. I wonder if this should be revised since we now add the difficulty of the manoeuvre -3 to the crash table result. When this originally came in the roll was only adjusted for speed. The wording above makes it a double whammy.
The modifier makes sense if you have to roll repeatedly every time you moved (or maybe per phase), which I think was how the maneuver was originally intended. If the correct thing is a single roll, then it might not make sense. Although it might for additional rolls due to hazards (you're facing sideways after all).

Quote:
 Originally Posted by swordtart How about the pivot? To do a permitted 180 degree about face, the front of the car moves half the circumference of a circle with radius 1" or over 3" where it would only get 1/2" straight line movement.
Yeah, the center moves about .9" from where it started in this case. The corner opposite the one you pivoted on is almost exactly 2" from where it started and pivoting corner ends up .35" from where it started.

Limiting the pivot to 90 degrees might be reasonable - it would cut the farthest corner moved down to 1.52" and the center to .75"

There's actually some wonkiness about the distance traveled even in the bends and drifts (go compare the distance that far the various corners and centers move some time).

The bootlegger and T-Stop just struck me as very off, which is why I brought them up.
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Dynamax Designs, Designing quality since 2035.

Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!

 08-20-2015, 04:19 PM #6 TamsinP   Join Date: May 2015 Location: London, UK Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness) I'd have said that the difficulty of the T-Stop is actually quite lenient when you consider that it is (in essence) a combination of a drift (D1), a steep drift (D3), a 90 degree bend (D6) and a 1" controlled skid (+D4) - a D14 manoueuvre when you add them all together. As it can only be used if your starting speed is 20-35 mph (in Classic), that would make it a D2 to D4 manoeuvre. which actually makes it much safer than ordinary deceleration (D2 to D7). I think it makes sense for the control roll to be made at the start of the manoeuvre as that is when it is most likely that control will be lost. Once you are skidding to a halt, you are much less likely to lose control.
08-20-2015, 04:31 PM   #7
Magesmiley

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TamsinP I'd have said that the difficulty of the T-Stop is actually quite lenient when you consider that it is (in essence) a combination of a drift (D1), a steep drift (D3), a 90 degree bend (D6) and a 1" controlled skid (+D4) - a D14 manoueuvre when you add them all together. As it can only be used if your starting speed is 20-35 mph (in Classic), that would make it a D2 to D4 manoeuvre. which actually makes it much safer than ordinary deceleration (D2 to D7). I think it makes sense for the control roll to be made at the start of the manoeuvre as that is when it is most likely that control will be lost. Once you are skidding to a halt, you are much less likely to lose control.
I think you're thinking of the bootlegger reverse. The T-Stop can be attempted at any speed.
__________________
Dynamax Designs, Designing quality since 2035.

Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!

08-20-2015, 07:26 PM   #8
TamsinP

Join Date: May 2015
Location: London, UK
Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Magesmiley I think you're thinking of the bootlegger reverse. The T-Stop can be attempted at any speed.
Nope, Classic, p14:

"Only vehicles which start the turn between 20 and 35mph can perform a T-Stop".

I'm guessing from what you're saying that in Compendium it can be attempted at any speed. That makes some sense of the first line on p13 which says "This is an extreme maneuver used for emergency deceleration.".

I'm assuming that when they wrote Classic, they made a decision to limit the speeds where it can be used, but didn't re-write the start.

08-20-2015, 08:12 PM   #9
Parody

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by TamsinP Nope, Classic, p14: "Only vehicles which start the turn between 20 and 35mph can perform a T-Stop".
Not sure why they made this change in 1990; neither the T-Stop in ADQ 5-1 nor the version in the CWC2s have that restriction. (I don't have a CWC1 to compare, and pre-Compendium Deluxe Car Wars has the old maneuver set.)

Perhaps it's just errata. :)
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Last edited by Parody; 08-20-2015 at 08:22 PM.

08-21-2015, 09:27 AM   #10
Magesmiley

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Re: T-Stops (and other maneuver strangeness)

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Parody Not sure why they made this change in 1990; neither the T-Stop in ADQ 5-1 nor the version in the CWC2s have that restriction. (I don't have a CWC1 to compare, and pre-Compendium Deluxe Car Wars has the old maneuver set.) Perhaps it's just errata. :)
That would be my suspicion as well. I'll check it this weekend.
__________________
Dynamax Designs, Designing quality since 2035.

Watch your handling and remember to Drive Offensively!

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