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Old 01-20-2019, 09:59 AM   #11
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
That's the name of a perk in Low Tech, but it only "grants access to" learning one skill at 1 TL higher.
No, that's "Anachronistic Skill", Low-Tech p. 9. Not the same thing, although I agree the naming is confusing.
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:01 PM   #12
William
 
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
See the Anachronistic Training technique, from p. 183 of Infinite Worlds.
This sounds like the most canonical answer; of course, Phantasm is my GM so I might end up going with his. :^)

Odd. I searched for previous comment threads about Anachronistic Training and others have commented that having to do it skill by skill does seem to leave an obvious hole in GURPS for such characters. "Native to two TLs" seems like it would be useful for such explorers or emissaries, and it doesn't seem like an Unusual Background much different from the Unusual Background that gives you access to a couple of disparate CFs, Savoir-Faire skills or Area Knowledges. Perhaps more useful and more expensive, naturally. I suppose GURPS' philosophy on /TL skills is that they really are formally different skills, they just have standardized defaults, which argues for whs' approach.

Anyway, thanks everyone.
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
One level of this perk is realistic, as there are those alive now who have their skills at both TL7 and TL8. Even two levels isn't impossible, for those who are in the 75-100 age bracket.
Or in other circumstances. I learned Photography as a teenager in the 1970s, using my father's equipment. He was born in 1915, and his gear was cheap 1950s copies of 1930s equipment, effectively TL6.
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Old 01-20-2019, 02:55 PM   #14
Vaevictis Asmadi
 
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Reawakened lets you "remember" skills, spells, or techniques learned during past lives, and purchase them at the normal point cost. It normally works because you've been reincarnated, but the Basic Set says it's just a special Unusual Background that allows you to know those skills. I think the same 10-point cost could cover what you want.
Isn't 10 points more expensive than increasing your TL by 1, though? Admitting that I've never GMed, that seems odd to me for situations where somebody in a TL8 environment also wants to be able to have multiple TL7 skills, in addition to TL8 versions. "I can also use things from 1 TL lower without penalty" seems less valuable than "I get to learn my skills and buy my equipment at 1 TL higher than everyone else." (Or at least, it's less valuable in a campaign without a lot of time travel or parachronic travel. If this kind of situation (Star Trek) happens frequently, the advantage would be a better buy.)

Or is the point of 10 points (instead of 5) that you effectively have two separate TLs at the same time, instead of being limited to just one?
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by Vaevictis Asmadi View Post
Isn't 10 points more expensive than increasing your TL by 1, though?
Sure, but you'd only need it in specific cases.

If you are a TL8 electronics hobbyist, you could learn TL7 electronics with transistors and modest integrated circuits and analog signals. Or you could learn TL6 electronics with vacuum tubes. It wouldn't be easy to find a teacher, but old handbooks are available (perhaps secondhand), and I expect you could find components. You could even make a spark gap transmitter, though actually operating it would bring the FCC to your door. This fits under the heading of lower-TL skills generally being available at higher TLs.

On the other hand, if a lower-TL skill has fallen out of use, and especially if it never had written handbooks, that general principle doesn't apply. That's when Reawakened could be useful. Or Unusual Background (Lived among Amazonian tribal peoples) for a comparable cost.

And in almost all of those cases, you're skipping across multiple TLs. If you're TL8 and you learned the ancient Roman art of making torsion artillery, or the Paleolithic art of chipping obsidian into tools, that's a difference of 6 or 8 TLs. A 10-point cost is a lot less than 30 or 40 points, which is what you'd pay for TL14 or TL16, if those existed.
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:04 PM   #16
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Or in other circumstances. I learned Photography as a teenager in the 1970s, using my father's equipment. He was born in 1915, and his gear was cheap 1950s copies of 1930s equipment, effectively TL6.
And much of that is still applicable today. Photography is still about aperture, shutter speed, and film speed (now mostly digital)
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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And much of that is still applicable today. Photography is still about aperture, shutter speed, and film speed (now mostly digital)
Yeah, but those of us who use TL7 darkrooms may be comfortable in TL6 darkrooms, but TL8 Photoshop confuses the heck out of us.

And both Photoshop and darkrooms essentially fall under the Photography skill, by RAW.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
Yeah, but those of us who use TL7 darkrooms may be comfortable in TL6 darkrooms, but TL8 Photoshop confuses the heck out of us.

And both Photoshop and darkrooms essentially fall under the Photography skill, by RAW.
This is one of the prime candidates for why I switched to using Familiarity over "hard TL penalties".

The differences between TL 6 and 7 Photography are minimal, at most worth a -2 or -3 (for more esoteric tools, like flash bulbs versus powders and exposure speeds), while the jump from 7 to 8 is probably starting at -5 going from digital to analog and digital editing/printing to dark rooms and hand manipulation.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:11 AM   #19
Jareth Valar
 
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

OK, what about reenactors/SCAdians or those that work at Historic Sites (Tryon Palace, NC; Roy Underhill/Woodwrights Shop; etc) that learn Smithing, Carpentry and Armory? Do they learn them at TL 3 or 4 (or lower) or do they learn them at TL 8 with the Anachronistic Training?

On one hand they are supposedly historical techniques, but many of those are actually still unknown and are just guesswork. Also, many are still using modern materials (SCAdians anyway, lol) like modern steel.

How would any of that, if at all, effect the TL of the skill? Would a reenactor learn Armory (Melee Weapons)/TL3 or would it be at TL8 with points in Anachronistic Training?

Also, there is also the Antiquary talent if you are using the alternate benefits.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:38 AM   #20
Phil Masters
 
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Default Re: Low TL familiarity?

Anachronistic Training is defined as an Average Technique, but actually, I think that's a bit of early-4th-ed weirdness; it makes more sense to regard it as a leveled perk, which is how we treat it in the games I play in.

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Originally Posted by William View Post
I suppose GURPS' philosophy on /TL skills is that they really are formally different skills, they just have standardized defaults, which argues for whs' approach.
Yes. I mean, the system attempts a generalised abstraction, which doesn't always look right, as in the case of Photography going from TL6 to TL7 (and don't let's talk about the rather easy jump from Driving/TL7 to Driving/TL8 which many of us undertook without noticing) - but sometimes, the difference really is that between two completely different skills; Armoury (Missile Weapons) over the TL 0/1/2 transition, for example. Smiths just aren't trained in flint-knapping.
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